To think “non-binary” is becoming a fashion statement for some people rather than a true identity?

[ByPoliteExpert]

Not saying it’s not real but the aestheticisation of it is creeping in.

How does it affect you if someone decides to call themselves non-binary?

Why is it any of your business?

I always think the world would be a much better place if people stopped being so judgemental and focused on living their own life rather than trying to tell others how they should live theirs...

Well it depends.

If people are calling themselves non binary without doing anything further, then that's no problem.

But if men are calling themselves non binary and thinking that should give them access to women's spaces, then that could be a problem for women.

Or if young women are calling themselves non binary and that taking them down a route of hormones or surgery, then that's something we should all be concerned about.

Or if people are calling themselves non-binary and insisting I refer to an individual as 'they', say in a meeting, when I can see quite clearly that that person is singular not plural and male or female - and make trouble for me if I don't - then yes, we have a problem.

Helle said “Male people with any transgender identity”. Non binary’ is listed as a transgender identity.

NHS policy says that ‘non binary people can choose the ward/spaces on which they feel most comfortable. Therefore male people who claim a ‘non binary’ identity can choose a women’s ward. Male ‘non binaries’ seem to make a habit of choosing women’s spaces. For some reason.

Social contagion 🤮

Nailed it.

I think it is clear that some people really are unaware of the decisions of some people with non-binary identities. I think they have some misconceptions around it.

However, some people who have adopted these identities are making the same medical decisions as those with opposite sex gender identities. Plus of course, there is still the demand that people and society make language changes around their philosophical belief.

And of course, claiming to be non-binary is purely a philosophical belief and it doesn't reflect the material reality of that person's sex category.

Because claiming to be non-binary is purely a philosophical belief and it doesn't reflect the material reality of that person's sex category, why is society changing language to suit this group of people?

What other group of people does society in general accept language change demands based on only a philosophical belief, and one that doesn't reflect material reality? Why is it considered 'kind' and 'respectful', to use non-binary pronouns and language demands when I cannot think of another group where these demands are supported in such a way?

@BundleBoogie I agree that there should be single sex spaces. I agree that there is a lot wrong with the nhs. I also think that identifying as non-binary isn’t harmful in itself.

Then I think you have missed the changes that have been happening.

It’s a hallmark of narcissism for anyone who is currently dating. ‘I’m non binary’… right.. you can annoy someone else with how different and special and entitled you are.

100%

I mostly agree with you.

But I also wonder about the more subtle consequences that perhaps we aren't fully processing.

My DS is 11 and there's a girl in his class who's claimed a non binary identity for herself. My DS is under no illusions, he knows this child is a girl. Nothing is being strictly enforced with regards to pronouns or anything, they all forget all the time, even the child in question. No issues there, they all se to muddle along fine with it, without taking it too seriously.

However, here's what's in the back of my mind. This child is a classic tomboy. Athletic, loves mucking around with the boys, not into anything stereotypically girly, all her close friendships are with boys.

I wonder is this encouraging these kids to think that a child like this, on some level isn't really female, because she is gender non conforming. That you can't be a girl and be very sporty and physical and love hanging out with the boys?

It comes back to how all this 'identifying as' seems to enforce gender stereotypes whereas our generation fought against them. I think our approach was much healthier in the long run.

Perhaps I'm overthinking it, I don't know.

When there are non-binary sporting prizes given that equal the same prize money as female and male, there is harm being done. Because that event has already been shown to not give female people equal chance of winning. It is just another opportunity for a male person to win prize money. So male people get two opportunities and in effect female people still only get one.

And why should a lower performing male person get equal footing in prize money and acclaim as exceptional athletes, just because they have a particular philosophical belief?

No. Non-binary identities are not ‘harmless’.

I listened to the excellent Inciteful Sisters podcast about lesbians this morning. The young lady outlined her experiences and described how many lesbians and ‘gender non conforming’ girls she’d met that were now declaring a new identity to ‘escape’ from being female. While most she described were identifying as male rather than ‘non binary’, it is clear that ‘non binary’ trans identities can be a pipeline which progresses to a full ‘transman’ identity.

Horrendously harmful to the bodies and mental health of vulnerable young people.

But elsewhere you said it wasnt about gender norms and stereotypes and that it was all about identity and a sense of self. To be fair, this is a very non-binary thing to say as it’s all contradictory, pinning jelly to a wall bollocks.

Non-binary is an umbrella term, it covers a range of experiences where someone doesn’t identify strictly as male or female. That doesn’t mean it’s anything goes on just a personality. It’s still about someone’s internal sense of gender, not just their traits or preferences

You can’t have a ‘sense’ of what you are - your sex is a fact, just like your humanness. That’s what male/female man/woman are: sexes. An internal sense of gender? See, wtaf is that? It’s just cultural and social stereotypes, isn’t it? Who in their right mind would give a damn about that?? Why are people going round obsessing about what stereotypes they fulfill? If you ask me, I can tell you mine, but I sure as hell don’t sit around navel-gazing while I weigh them up and decide if I’m non-binary or not.

More than that, it’s 2025 and worrying about some list of stereotypes and measuring yourself against them is the most stupid, regressive thing I’ve heard. You are YOU. You have a sex but your looks, your thoughts can be whatever you want. That’s how most people live. I feel sorry for those who don’t because they’re like people desperately trying all the windows to escape while everyone else is busy walking out the wide open door.

Cultural experience or regressive stereotypes?

If money is a social construct because the paper/coins/electronic money only has value because we say it does then I think it only works because we all have the same understanding of what that value is.

I think gender is not a social construct, more of a personal construct if it's about your own understanding of how your self fits in either a male/female/neither category. Apparently it can mean different things to absolutely everybody so there's no common understanding. If we're all talking about different things then how is a useful category?

I know that some people just like to be different and enjoy the attention, but also a lot of the people I know with a non-binary identity seem to be quite fragile. Instead of "look at me, I'm special" it's more "don't look at me, I'm nobody", which is very sad.

I really don't have time for non-binary-ness. It's either narcissistic bullshit or MH issues.

The definition seems to oscillate between a) "rejecting the gender binary" and b) not identifying as a woman/man.
If a) I understand that NB see themselves as not 100% masculine/femenine, which I could understand, but it's a bit like everyone else really, but with more anxiety and navel-gazing thrown into it. In addition, this option requires the "binary" to exist, so in reality it's not a true rejection of gender stereotypes, quite the opposite.

if b) then I disagree fully, as being a man/woman is not an identity, but a biological reality. I have truly no idea what they think being a woman/man is. It's like saying you don't identify as human. Makes zero sense.

Seriously, how did we get to this level of idiocy?

I once ran into someone online who called themselves a "non-binary mother". Seemed like a total contradiction in terms but maybe I'm just crazy!

It’s a nonsense and I privately think people who claim to be non-binary are either attention seekers or not very bright.

You are either male or female. You cannot opt out of biological sex.

Wear what you want, stick two fingers up at conforming to gender stereotypes….I get it, I support you. But denial of your sex is stupid and compelling me to buy into gender bollocks is sinister. I don’t and I won’t.

NB is ridiculous. Sadly it has become something akin to punk, goth etc - the important difference is the gender twaddle that comes with it.

I've been trying REALLY hard not to express my exasperation, particularly as others are explaining stuff so well. I have failed. This, to me, sums up the internal incoherence of the 'gender identity' fallacy:

Being non-binary isn’t about rejecting femininity or not fitting a mould, it’s about not identifying as solely male or female at all. So your example actually reinforces the point: gender identity is internal. You know you’re a woman.

You can't rationally agree that gender is a set of social constructs & stereotypes - which it is, as you have demonstrated, because it's situation dependent - and then segue into the assumption that gender equals sex.

Either a 'gender identity' is a self-evaluation in relation to the cultural expectations of each sex, or it's a statement that the person doesn't accept the sex of their body. It can't be both unless you're starting from the premise that gendered conventions determine sex.

Cultural mores do not determine sex. That much is obvious, I hope.

If you feel you don't want to be defined by your culture's rules on which sex can do what, then good for you. You're normal.

If you feel that the sex of your body dictates what you may or may not do, you're a victim of gender ideology or living in a deeply oppressive society. My sympathies either way, but it doesn't mean you have a special 'gender identity'. It means you're a fully functional human being who's being unfairly hemmed in by other people's beliefs.

If you feel you don't know, or can't accept, the fundamental fact of your physical sex, you've got a distressing mental health problem and I hope you manage to come to terms with it before too long. Because nothing can change your sex.

The PP you replied to knows her body's female. You seem to be saying this means she has a gender identity (female). Yet she's just said she's a female who chooses not to be hemmed in by 'gender'. So, by the parameters you've set out, she doesn't have a gender identity? But somehow she does?

It's incoherent. And, going back to your OP, YABU to think any gender identity is anything other than performative. It's an utterly depressing validation of society's gender rules. The more vehemently a person claims they must be trans/enby to exist outside those rules, the more power they yield to the rules.

I’m acquainted with a lovely NB young woman. She has a long-term boyfriend, wears make-up and dresses in a conventional feminine manner. It doesn’t matter to her if we sometimes slip up and use “her” or “ she” instead of “they” and “them”.

She also has significant trauma in her past. She’s rejecting, inwardly, gender norms where they suppress women and doing what feels right to her. It’s quite a feminist action, really, if a radical one.

She’s rejecting, inwardly, gender norms where they suppress women and doing what feels right to her. It’s quite a feminist action, really, if a radical one

No, it’s really not. She’s reifying those stereotypes and letting them rule her life. The radical thing to do would be to say she’s a woman and doesn’t give a fuck about gender stereotypes. In reality, what’s she’s saying is she does, and that you can only be a woman if you comply with gender stereotypes.

There’s nothing feminist or radical about defining yourself by how much you align with stupid, oppressive stereotypes. She’s just handing power to those stereotypes. It’s also highly offensive to every other woman. What the AF does she think we’re doing? All complying with those stereotypes???