School and University

[NoMoreBigDaddy]

I would value advice - first time asking here, but I see a lot of helpful discussion here on Mumsnet so here I go...

DD has always been a stellar student - she goes to a good public school which has been expensive, but good for her I think. I have sacrificed quite a lot to send her there honestly - am not rich by any stretch of the imagination - but believe in the importance of a good education.

DD worked very hard and got fantastic GCSE's (all A's and A*) and now has been predicted three A's at A-Level very recently (she has just finished Lower 6th).. She wanted to apply to Oxbridge and had visited and liked oner of the colleges there a lot. However school just told her they would not support her application there now - they only want a limited number of people from the school to apply to Oxbridge and 'her grades aren't good enough' for her to be part of their little group 'allowed' to apply. Have suggested she looks for different uni's instead, even though many of them don't offer her chosen course.

Has anyone else come up against this? In my day (I am an old bugger now) we were free to apply anywhere we wanted. Some universities base admission on an interview and an individual test too.

AIBU to be angry about this? It feels like they are clipping her wings just when she needs their support the most. And 3 A grades as a prediction is good surely? She has now quietly gone back to her research though there have been tears. I honestly don't know - AIBU or not?

I know...first world problems and all that but it's my DD of course, so I am (very) biased. Thank you.

I mean I would say they are right, 3 As isn’t going to be enough for most oxbridge courses.
At the end of the day they can’t stop her from applying, however many schools offer certain support and coaching for oxbridge applications and they are saying that wouldn’t be available to her.

I believe you can find the grades/ ucas points achieved by candidates on each course at different unis- sorry I don’t have a link.
You may be able to make a case to the school based on that info. Their view may be reflected in their reference.
@poetryandwine may be able to advise.

Your DD doesn't need school/college approval or support.

She can apply wherever the fuck she likes.

But I'd advise her to ask more about their assertion that her application wouldn't be strong enough.
They might be correct. Some courses at top universities are unbelievably oversubscribed so a full set of top grades just isn't enough. It depends on the course - those with lost international revenue are likely to be more generous these days.

If there's the option (there is at open days where I work), I'd also ask the admissions team at the university for their insight too.

Edited to add: I'm an academic, used to be admissions tutor and so make decisions about student applications

Whilst I agree she should be able to apply where she wants (and in theory she can) she will be up against people predicted 3 A star and all 9s (did she get 7s and 8s?). It's a waste of a UCAS form slot and her time and effort for exams if they know she won't get in. Surely they'd want as many as possible to get in so would support her if they thought she was a possible? Do you think 3As is accurate or is she likely to achieve higher?

I think she's still free to apply to wherever she likes - afaik the school doesn't have the right to stop her. However, realistically three As probably isn't good enough for Oxbridge so it would be better to apply elsewhere. You can check the admissions requirements on the website as it depends what she wants to study, but my DS was rejected with one A and two A-star predictions. It's very competitive!

I think it's a sensible choice for the school to make. 3As aren't good enough for Oxbridge. It'll be a waste of an application.

Could also depend on the subject, I think. If she’s going for MFL there might be more flexibility than for maths.

What course does she want to do? Has she looked at the grade requirements for the Oxford course she wants to do?
Realistically, if she is predicted 3As and the usual offer is higher than that she is unlikely to get an interview or offer. Lots of candidates will have 3 Astar predictions.
The school can’t stop her applying but they will need to be on board to ensure her application is in early to meet the deadlines.

does seem a bit harsh. At my DCs school, anyone who wanted to apply to Oxbridge was supported. Although they were quite good at suggesting that it might not be the best idea. She could always reapply next year if she gets top grades.

Can I suggest you report your post to mn and ask for it to be moved to the higher education topic with the title school refusing to support Oxbridge application. You will get more informed replies.

Thank you. She is actually applying for one of the less competitive courses there which has a higher acceptance rate than most...

I am not sure I understand a 'wasted' UCAS slot - DD is able to apply to four other universities? She has to sit a course specific exam (already booked by her) which I think she would do very well in as she loves her chosen subject and had started preparing. She will have to pass an interview there - but we will never know if she would be selected for interview if she doesn't sit the course exam and apply? It's dead in the water from now.

The school probably want to be able to say "x% of our students are going to their first choice university" which may be why they are discouraging her (if they don't think she'll get a place).

Three problem is the school is a money making business which is judged on its results, ultimately the amount of students into Oxbridge being the highest of these.

If the school feel they have only a limited capacity to support the potential successes they are going to want to target this where it had the greatest potential to make a difference, and sadly they have judged your daughter to not be part of this.

DCs went to state in a deprived London borough not known for its schooling (nothing like Brampton Manor etc) and yet have many friends who went/hoping to go to Oxbridge. The school starts v rigorous prep at the beginning of year 12 and honestly adherence with this is the biggest determinant of who gets in, many drift off or lose commitment and so by the time it comes to actually applying they have already naturally self selected. DS was and is bright but lasted two weeks, head of sixth said if he can't hack it he wouldn't hack the Oxbridge model, and he's right.

There is nothing to stop your DD from applying but she would be at a disadvantage against those who have done the extra prep, and there are plenty of other very good options out there.

(I am not only a parent but was Admissions Manager at a RG for many years)

Are those three As what DD actually got in her summer exams, or her predicted grades for UCAS? Bear in mind predicted grades are usually higher than achieved grades - particularly the aspirational ones that go on UCAS - so a prediction of three As could easily result in one or more Bs, which wouldn’t be enough. For Oxford the minimum offer is AAA for humanities and for Cambridge A*AA (and sciences higher in both cases). Your predicted grades need to at least match the minimum offer to be considered, and the majority of successful candidates will turn up with higher grades than that. Oxbridge will base admissions decisions more on performance in entrance tests and interviews than predicted grades, but that gives you an idea of the competition!

That said, the school cannot actually stop your DD from applying where she likes. They could write her a poor reference but it’s hard to see why they would. If she is really keen and feels those grades could be improved, might it be worth having a talk with the school to see if they could suggest strategies to improve her chances?

Just remember there are plenty of other excellent universities out there!

Oxbridge are limiting intake from public schools (for the sake of diversity), so the school clearly only wants to ‘support’ its best candidates. 3 As will not be enough. She’d need A*s.

But she could still apply! She just won’t get the testimonial you would like from the school as they have specific candidates they’d prefer to push forward.

It’s unclear what GCSEs she got. 7s and 8s?
They will be looking for 9s.

There are lots of fantastic universities in this country. I’d suggest not fixating on Oxbridge so much and look for good, strong options that do well in your DD’s chosen subject.

Good luck!

Has your daughter had any direct communication with the Oxbridge college about their entry requirements/ her chances? I can see it seems unfair by school - but you described it as a public school and I would imagine they have a lot of experience in who gets into Oxbridge and who does not. Being honest, while 3As may sound good - and is- the students in the same years as both my children (state school) who ended up with Oxbridge offers had all A* predictions/offers.

I do think similar to the last two posts. In my opinion (I honestly don't know for sure), the school has decided to only 'allow' a handful of its students apply so they can say a) 'x % got to their first choice university' (but we control your 'choice' and b) they know that the school (and those of a similar ilk) are looked at more harshly now and want to put forward their 'chosen 4'.

My school was a standard comprehensive and encouraged us all to apply to the best university we could hope to get into.

But I am an old bugger now, so there's that...

Your daughter stands no chance with 3 A's coming from a private school.

If you had 3A's predicted from a deprived area, your child was part of a BAME group and lived in a low income house, you would maybe stand a chance.

Which is what?... The admission team will want and expect predictors that are above the grade requirements. How did your DD not manage a single A* prediction? (Don't schools usually have some grade uplift)

Your DD did do well to get 3As. Oxbridge is never guaranteed and she'll compete with people who have 4Astars. My DS was predicted 4Astars and still was rejected from Cambridge economics post interview.

Hmm, not sure I’d agree about public schools being discriminated against... stats just released show the proportion of successful private school applicants has actually increased at both Oxford and Cambridge the last two years. One of the admissions tutors seemed to suggest it was due to loss of attainment during covid, which affected state schools more.

Overall, a private applicant has a 21% chance of success and state 18%.

Thank you Swiftie1878 - she got all 9's and one 8 at GCSE...

She did go to one of the course-specific days they run and she got the impression she would be welcomed, especially as her course choice is rather niche and it's unusual for someone of her particular background to apply for it.

It sounds as though she definitely has the aptitude so what needs to be explored is why her predicted grades are now relatively low

Remember that whenever a school quotes “first choice” they mean the uni they firmed rather than insurance not first choice out of the ones they applied to - there’s no ranking order on application! So actually could easily be that none of their cohort got their genuine personal first choice!!!

Thank you for those replying - I do appreciate it.

It sounds like I might be being unreasonable to be honest - it's just a bit hard being told that the university won't get to decide on her themselves I guess.

I think that if this is really where she wants to go she should apply. I agree with others that it is a long shot but at least she will have tried. As long as she has strong other choices that she could go to then it is not wasted. Being aspirational is no bad thing.