School and University

[NoMoreBigDaddy]

I would value advice - first time asking here, but I see a lot of helpful discussion here on Mumsnet so here I go...

DD has always been a stellar student - she goes to a good public school which has been expensive, but good for her I think. I have sacrificed quite a lot to send her there honestly - am not rich by any stretch of the imagination - but believe in the importance of a good education.

DD worked very hard and got fantastic GCSE's (all A's and A*) and now has been predicted three A's at A-Level very recently (she has just finished Lower 6th).. She wanted to apply to Oxbridge and had visited and liked oner of the colleges there a lot. However school just told her they would not support her application there now - they only want a limited number of people from the school to apply to Oxbridge and 'her grades aren't good enough' for her to be part of their little group 'allowed' to apply. Have suggested she looks for different uni's instead, even though many of them don't offer her chosen course.

Has anyone else come up against this? In my day (I am an old bugger now) we were free to apply anywhere we wanted. Some universities base admission on an interview and an individual test too.

AIBU to be angry about this? It feels like they are clipping her wings just when she needs their support the most. And 3 A grades as a prediction is good surely? She has now quietly gone back to her research though there have been tears. I honestly don't know - AIBU or not?

I know...first world problems and all that but it's my DD of course, so I am (very) biased. Thank you.

@NoMoreBigDaddy I apologise if my previous message was harsh but what is the Oxbridge specific course? I might be able to advise alternatives

This is a bit contradictory @NoMoreBigDaddy

You are making it sound like the “chosen ones” are the favourites in an unfair way. But if the school want to be able to publish option A (got their first choice university) then it only makes sense to put forward the “chosen ones” on the basis of their academic ability and personal attributes/skills that make it likely they will be accepted.

It’s shit when your DC lose out on something they really want but we are not doing them any favours by telling them “you can be whatever you want” - they can’t. Oxbridge is so competitive and although you think your DC has what it takes, the school will know where she stands in comparison to other pupils/the playing field.

The school cannot stop her putting Oxbridge as one of her choices. However they will have to provide a reference and part of that is to indicate how they perform in the context of the cohort. Also the gcses will be considered in the context of the setting where they are sat.

Therefore if the other students have 9s and yours has 7s/8s they get a negative score.

The reference may refer to her being mid cohort ability rather than at the top end.

As regards predictions if they are predicting 3 x A this is supposed to be a prediction of how they would do on their best day so would not be competitive with those applying from her school with 3 or even 4 x A*.

Unfortunately even with the course being "less" competitive of the Oxford ones it will still be massively competitive.

BUT

having said that the application is indeed HER application and she can indeed put Oxford as one of her choices on that form but she should do so with an expectation that it's worth a shot but that she may not get in but it's betters than always wondering "what if". Another option is to wait to see whether she actually exceeds her predictions and apply with grades in hand (assuming not maths based course).

She may want to choose one of the other high ranking unis such as Durham, Warwick, Bristol, UCL and the like for her aspirational choice as there is a chance she may not get offers there too. She should certainly aim to put a couple of safe places on too so she isn't left with no offers.

Gently..... Most reasonably able and motivated private school pupils should be able to get 3 A's predictions. University admission stats are the core business of private schools. So bring predicted 3 A's from a private school simply doesn't stand out. As others have pointed out your daughter still has an advantage over state school pupils and a definite advantage over state school pupils from the less focused/impressive state school.... Both mine go to a bog standard comp. The kids who have Oxbridge offers (similar numbers but I'm guessing drawing from a much bigger cohort) are super super impressive.... Like all 9's at GCSE and never dropped below an A on any test, naturally and obviously gifted, and then on top work part time and are athletes/musicians (to a high level) etc.... They are (in a good way) slightly terrifying 😆
By all means push for her to have the opportunity but look at the stats of what grades those who get in actually get.....

OP post on the HE boards. Lots of posters here are making huge assumptions with little knowledge. For a start although the shorthand Oxbridge is useful, both have different entry criteria which has been missed here. (One ignores GCSE grades and puts a lot of weight on entry exams, the other is the opposite.)

I would encourage her to apply tbh - making a sensible application to a college / uni that plays to her strengths. And I’d also be sending a very stern email to the school letting them know that you will be asking for a copy of their reference.

I think she should give it a shot. Lots of courses at Oxbridge only ask for 3 A's and not A stars. What they actually look at is passion and aptitude for the subject.
It's a gamble for everyone, even if you have 13 9's and 4 A stars. Could you help her apply- there are tons of help on their website. Good, lesson for real life, as when you apply for jobs you have to apply and put a lot of effort into things you only have 5-10 per-cent chance of getting in., all without much help.

I’m not sure why a student with all 8’s and 9’s at GCSE isn’t being developed by the school to achieve three A stars.

My son is year 12 and was on a Cambridge admissions webinar last night where it was made very clear that two A stars for humanities and three A stars for STEM is the minimum they would realistically offer interviews to. Oxbridge admissions will expect better grades at GCSE from public school students as they look at grades in the context of the whole school year’s achievement.

if your daughter wants to apply to Oxbridge, particularly from a public school, she should be looking for three A stars predictions, two as a very bare minimum. Can you talk to the school and ask if she can take her mocks again in September to try and get her grade prediction increased? Good luck.

She should apply. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. They can either say yes or no.
If she doesnt get in then she doesn't get in, with no regrets about not applying.
Tbh, I got a 2.1 from an average uni and now 20 years on I have oxbridge contacting me every couple of months trying to get me to so their MBA, so life throws you things all the way through. I won't be taking them up on the offer due to their extortionate fees.
My advice is to give it shot, but with an open mind and a solid plan B.
Never put your eggs in one basket and always have an alternative plan, being able to pivot is a great life and work skill.

If the school thought your DD’s grades were good enough they would be supporting and coaching her for the interview. My brother went to Oxford, and his grammar school did this for him. It was x 3 A stars you needed - even back then. Your DD has very done well, you need to demonstrate how proud you are and also resilience via your own emotional modelling, there are plenty of other brilliant Russel Group unis who would want your DD. My brother had a breakdown in his first year at Oxford, they wanted him off his course/transferred as he wasn’t on track for a 1st. The teachers at your DD’s school will be very familiar with stories like this and they don’t think your daughter will cope. You’ve bought a dog, so don’t bark yourself - as my granny would say.

Surely just "Thank you for your advice. On reflection, I would like to apply anyway". Where she applies is bugger all to do with the school. I'm intrigued to know the course though! And yes obviously look at others as Oxford might not come off. But agree that not a wasted option.

True, but if she gets an offer and then misses her grades then my point would still apply.

How did she manage As for GCSE when it would be a 7, 8 or 9 🤔

I’d echo pps and get this moved to the Higher Education board and retitled ‘School says it won’t support Oxford/Cambridge application’.

This is very anecdotal but I know someone who didn't get Cambridge post interview and then he didn't get any of his other 4 offers due to his low GCSEs.

I would contact the university of her chosen course and ask their advice about the school not supporting the application. If she is choosing something that historically has been studied by people who are different from her (sex or ethnicity) they may well be looking for strong candidates from other backgrounds.

10 years ago, a friend of mine was told exactly the same by our school – that they wouldn't support an application and she shouldn't bother. She ended up with 2 A Stars and an A at Edinburgh, and although she had a great time there I think she still has regrets to this day about not having applied to Oxbridge. She knows full well that she might not have got in but it was really hurtful to feel that the school had effectively 'written her off' as an Oxbridge applicant.

Anyway, if your DD wants to apply, she should! She'll have four other options on her UCAS form so why not take the plunge?

If she doesn't get into any of her uni options is it the end of the world. She could go through clearing or reapply next year surely?

A friends’ son got 10 9’s at GCSE and 4 A*’s at A Level. He was rejected by Oxford, didn’t even get an interview (now at KCL and very happy last time I saw him). Other people I know got in with lower grades 👀. So I’d say it worth applying, why not.

My guess about a course that isn't there elsewhere and has a higher than average acceptance rate would be ASNAC at Cambridge

My DD was home educated. She has 9 GCSEs varying between 6 and 9 and applied for Cambridge with 2 A* and 1 A predicted grades and got an interview.

She was fully supported by the sixth form, I would as far as saying they pushed. She didn't get past the interview stage but has decided to take a year out and may reapply next year with her actual grades.

Maybe if your daughter does better than predicted and is very set on Oxbridge she can take a year out and reapply next year with her actuals?

Both mine go to a bog standard comp. The kids who have Oxbridge offers (similar numbers but I'm guessing drawing from a much bigger cohort) are super super impressive.... Like all 9's at GCSE and never dropped below an A on any test, naturally and obviously gifted, and then on top work part time and are athletes/musicians (to a high level)

And then there's my kid, who went to an ordinary comp, got a mix of 7 to 9 at GCSE, grouched about ten minutes of music practice, didn't do any organised sport, had ABB predictions but applied on a whim post-results (grades were better than expected!) and got an offer.

Your dad could try to up her grades and apply when she has her results. If she does well in an entrance exam, the school's reference might matter less. It depends on the course.

I really appreciate all comments - thank you.

@AmberSpy This is where my thinking still is at the moment, though I accept I might be wrong. But now the school has made the decision, I am really not sure how to circumnavigate the grip they seem to have on the application. It feels like all are still very much 'pupils' that should do as they are told in the school's eyes, despite the fact that most of them are now/are about to become adults (if that makes any sense).

God, do they still do ASNAC? I kind of want to go back in time and take that now.

What’s it got to do with them where she applies?

But yes I’d be surprised if she got into Oxbridge with those grades.

OP, you haven’t explained why her predicted grades are so low, given her GCSEs and the nature of the school.

Are they MFL (sometimes harder to get A* due to the native speaker effect on the grade profile)? Maths with an 8 at GCSE? Subjects she’s done an initio for A level like Psychology or something so there isn’t a straight progression from GCSE?

Unless the school routinely underpredicts at this stage to encourage hard work (and then puts higher predictions on the actual UCAS form), just 3As sounds odd and you may want to query it as well as the refusal to support an Oxbridge application. Can you request a meeting?

ETA: Other undersubscribed courses might be eg Theology; Classics.