School and University

[NoMoreBigDaddy]

I would value advice - first time asking here, but I see a lot of helpful discussion here on Mumsnet so here I go...

DD has always been a stellar student - she goes to a good public school which has been expensive, but good for her I think. I have sacrificed quite a lot to send her there honestly - am not rich by any stretch of the imagination - but believe in the importance of a good education.

DD worked very hard and got fantastic GCSE's (all A's and A*) and now has been predicted three A's at A-Level very recently (she has just finished Lower 6th).. She wanted to apply to Oxbridge and had visited and liked oner of the colleges there a lot. However school just told her they would not support her application there now - they only want a limited number of people from the school to apply to Oxbridge and 'her grades aren't good enough' for her to be part of their little group 'allowed' to apply. Have suggested she looks for different uni's instead, even though many of them don't offer her chosen course.

Has anyone else come up against this? In my day (I am an old bugger now) we were free to apply anywhere we wanted. Some universities base admission on an interview and an individual test too.

AIBU to be angry about this? It feels like they are clipping her wings just when she needs their support the most. And 3 A grades as a prediction is good surely? She has now quietly gone back to her research though there have been tears. I honestly don't know - AIBU or not?

I know...first world problems and all that but it's my DD of course, so I am (very) biased. Thank you.

Just checked and ASNAC requires A*AA

Though oxb have finally realised that not all ‘state’ schools are equal. Grammar schools are highly selective and often outperform non selective private schools.

For a person to say ‘I went to state’ school doesn’t really help - was it Brompton Oratory / Grey Coat Hospital School / Haberdashers etc or was it Toxteth comp? Not quite the same.

I don't think predictions of 3As from a public school are high enough. Most people will be applying with predictions of A stars (one at least). There's no contextual offer at play here either so whereas a student with 3 As from a disadvantaged background would be looked at more favourably, your DD won't because she's at a public school.

What's the course and what is the typical offer for that course? I know you say the course has a higher acceptance rate but she will still be competing with many other excellent candidates who will be predicted higher grades than her. However, she might do very well on the entrance exam and interview.

I don't think the school will be trying to stop her applying because she's not in the "in-crowd" and they don't want her being competition with their better students. If those students are better than her then they are more likely to get a place so it makes no difference whether they apply or not. The reason is much more likely to be that they think she has little chance of getting a place based on her current performance at school and don't want her to "waste" one of her choices on the UCAS form when she could apply to another good university and have a better chance of getting in.

However, if, as you say, only a few universities offer the subject, she could apply anyway and see what happens. If she doesn't get in but gets better grades than predicted in her A-levels she could reapply the following year. Just be aware that she is using up an option for something that sounds like it could be unrealistic with a prediction of 3As.

Has to be Oxford as everything at Cambridge is A*AA.. my next guess is human sciences as that's the only one that truly unique to Oxford

This was 20 years ago and I don't know much about the current A-level system (and it would depend on the course) so I can't comment on that, but my school didn't want me to apply there either. I had the grades, they were just very anti-Oxbridge and didn't want any pupils to apply there. I applied anyway and got in.

It did help that I had a lovely A-level teacher who disagreed with the head of sixth form's attitude and quietly wrote a reference for me. Would your DD have that?

If she wants to apply, the school can't stop her.
But, to echo what others have said, to have 3 As predicted(and predictions are aspirational) is low by the standards of Oxbridge applicants, particularly ones that have been to an expensive public school with strong educational standards. The school may be trying to point out that Oxbridge means being exceptionally good, not just very good.

However, if there is an external assessment and she aces it, that might swing it (although if she's capable of acing the assessment, it rather begs the question as to why she's not getting A* predictions).

In your shoes, I might frame this as a conversation with your daughter about advocating for herself.

Unfortunately we all encounter situations in life where someone will try to prevent us doing something we really want to do. Developing the skills to say politely but firmly "Thank you for the advice and I appreciate it's well-intentioned, but I have thought hard about my options and have decided to go ahead anyway" is really important, and will serve her well later in life. (Obviously doesn't always apply depending on context, but I think in this situation it does).

Honestly I'm quite outraged on your daughter's behalf – it's her life and her education and I think really mean-spirited of the school to be so dismissive.

For what it's worth, there seem to be a lot of comments on this thread saying your daughter's grades aren't good enough. I would ignore this. There is a silly perception that the grades stated by the university admissions departments are not accurate (so they say '3As' but in reality won't interview anyone without 3A Stars). This is not true. I got on to my course at Oxford (MFL) with only As at A Level. That was all that I needed for that course, it didn't matter that I didn't achieve 5A Stars or whatever crazy standard people seem to expect. My grades at GCSE were good but not exceptional too. I had a wonderful time and coped very well with the demands of the course – I do hate all the pessimism about these universities.

Honestly, Oxbridge isn't the be-all and end-all. My nephew got a first at Oxford and was asked to stay on to do a postgraduate degree, but decided to go to St Andrew's instead. He much preferred St Andrew's, both as a university and in terms of its teaching and research methods, and has again chosen to stay away from Oxbridge for his PhD.

Future employers don't always rate Oxbridge that much, either, Your daughter needs to look into which universities have the best reputation for her subject, and also what the postgraduate employment rates are. I'm sure she'll do well wherever she goes.

I'd give exactly the same advice.

When I was at school, someone applied to Oxbridge that the school didn’t recommend have a go and she got in. It’s perfectly possible, and she’ll never know if she doesn’t try. That said, I think she would need to be up for working very hard through short terms since that’s what those uni’s seem to be like in practice.

Is the school refusing because they don’t have the resources to provide individual tutoring for the aptitude test and interview practice for everyone who wants to give Oxbridge a shot or they feel borderline students would hold up the group if it is a class? Or is the issue that with a prediction of 3 As she won’t get an offer and they don’t want to bump them up because over predicting reflects badly on the school with universities and they don’t want her to get an offer but not make her offer grades? Is there a reason why she isn’t predicted A stars other than ability eg she didn’t revise for mocks, she has been unwell or other mitigating circumstances? Could she ask the school what she needs to do to increase her predictions?

What is the course? Can she apply next year with grades in hand? She could put her energy into getting A stars instead of preparing for the aptitude test. It isn’t recommended to take a gap year for some courses but it’s fine for most subjects. It’s hard to say without knowing what the subject is.

The thing is OP, in this case her public school background will work against her. Private schools are known to inflate predicted, and shes had a privileged education and upbringing so if she was the best of the best she would have presumably almost all 9s and A*s

I would advise getting your pushy mum on. You pay the same fees as the other children and if your daughter wants to apply and has some sort of chance then they should encourage and support that. Telling a child they are not good enough is counter to what you pay for and one of the reasons that I imagine you chose to invest in a private school. I could appreciate if she was miles off the tariff but she isn't. A public school won't necessarily go in her favour but if she is passionate about her subject it will shine through more than someone with 4A*s who doesn't really know why they want to study Astro Physics.

I also got in to Oxford from a failing school, which almost never sent anyone to university, far less Oxbridge, so I just filled out my own application etc. No, training, backing, help or encouragement. I also didn’t have a single extra-curricular activity, as I spent large amounts of time working as my wages were needed at home. They accepted me I assume because they could see raw promise and huge interest, and I was a lively, bolshy interviewee who wasn’t going to be intimidated by the tutorial system or break under the pressure of two weekly essays, given that I’d achieved good school results while working a lot out of school hours, and had had no coaching for interviews.

My dd is yr 12 at an Independent (full bursary for disclosure). There have been absolute SCENES the last couple of weeks with girls (esp STEM) not getting the predicted grades.

They've been told "we have good standing with Universities, we have data going back years, we're NOT budging on this, you were told numerous times since day one of year 12"

Horrible for girls affected, but indeed, they were
told, often & plenty throughout the year.
So not entirely sure thats correct of all independents @PinkChaires.

OP can your DD ask to do some extra to try & get the predicted up before UCAS goes in?
Best of luck to her.

I think part of the "problem" is that OP's DD doesn't got to a failing school or even an ordinary comp. She goes to an expensive public school that OP has picked for its educational standards.

Oxbridge do view results in a contextual way, but OP's DD has had the best possible chance to get the highest predictions (from a school that stereotypically will provide inflated predictions) so it's less likely that she has untapped promise.

I'm sure the school will write her a good reference they're just not going to handhold her over the application. Honestly why the stress it's a gamble for everyone. If she is passionate about her intended subject go for it. If she just wants to go to Oxbridge but might actually be happier and prefer the courses at other good unis such as Kings, Leeds, Exeter or Bristol that's an even better outcome

Also if she went a state school - she would most likely have to do her own application form etc..

Doesn't everyone?

I do appreciate its not all privates, but they do have that reputation on the whole.

I think in private schools/ there is a lot more coaching, advice given, interview practice . - particularly for Oxbridge

i don't think they should be trying to stop her applying. They're probably right in that 3As isn't enough to get it though.

I would be furious at this @NoMoreBigDaddy and you have every right to complain. The school's marketing policies to be able to claim "x% got into their first choice" is not a higher priority than encouraging each pupil to strive for their very best. Let them know that if they don't support your DD's application then their policy of crushing aspiration for their own benefit will be included in what you say whenever anyone asks you whether you would recommend the school.

Why is it dead in the water now?

She has the amb and is capable of the grades, so forget the school and support her.

Find out what is needed, get her some tutoring, start prepping for interviews etc and help her apply.

The school can encourage her to look elsewhere, but they can't prevent her applying, so it's up to you and her now.

My school tried this one on with me 20+ years ago (not for Oxbridge but another uni, highly competitive for my subject).

I ignored them and got an offer. Chose somewhere else in the end, but it should be up to her to apply for where she wants. If nothing else it’s a good lesson for her in standing up for what she wants - and it is ultimately her decision, nothing to do with the school!