To say that the "alternative medicine" and conspiracy theorists about Western medicine are dangerous to society?

[YourAmplePlumPoster]

I have a friend I've known all my life. He first of all refused to have the Covid vaccine and then refused treatment for his prostate cancer and said he was going to treat it with homeopathic medicine. Result was that it spread to his hip bone. Luckily he started chemo and it's worked. What is wrong with these people?

Tell me you’re a blinkered intolerant of anything you don’t understand or agree with, without saying so.

Oh. You already did that.

@Firefly1987

But surely if they had advanced cancer they were sadly very likely to die anyway. Chemo can be palliative only. Hundreds of thousands of people sadly die every year of cancer fully treated by western medicine.

That's true of course. I can totally understand how cannabis comes into its own in palliative/supportive care. But in this case this person actually believed the cannabis oil was more likely to "cure" their cancer than chemo and other pharmacological treatments.

There is a podcast on bbc sounds at the moment about this - marianna in conspiracyland 2

You're quite right.

The rationale is that, after seeking and failing to become the Democratic Party's nominee for the recent election, and his subsequent, long-shot, campaign as a Third Party Candidate started to lose some momentum, RFK Jr approached the Trump and Harris campaigns, offering to endorse them in exchange for a role in their potential administrations.

Harris's campaign said no but the Trump campaign, seeing the value in likely securing a big chunk of RFK's remaining supporters, and more concerned with an election win than any particular policy objectives, offered RFK (a wildly dishonest, conspiracy loon) the role of Health Secretary. Trump stating that he'd let RFK "go wild" on health policy.

So now the US has an absolute fucking loon, who believes, among other things, that Covid-19 was bioweapon designed to target white people and black people (sparing Jews and Asians), that there's no link between HIV and AIDS, and a whole host of other complete nonsense, making policy decisions based on counter-factual, ideological and dangerous nonsense - because he bought the right to do so.

Hey I’ll jump into this! My comments in bold italics

Trust the science! It’s fact after all, isn’t it? Of course it is you are saying as you nod your head.

Hmm but wait UC Berkeley Science department doesn’t agree with that…

https://undsci.berkeley.edu/understanding-science-101/how-science-works/

“The simplified, linear description of the scientific method implies that science concludes … but in reality, scientific conclusions are always revisable if warranted by the evidence. Scientific investigations are often ongoing, raising new questions even as old ones are answered.“

Surely that’s only true for science related to rocks or outer space or some other type of science.

Oh hmm…maybe they do mean medicine…

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/why-medical-research-keeps-changing-its-mind-2020010318576

“Researchers collected more than 3,000 randomized controlled trials; these are considered the most reliable types of research because they randomly assign otherwise similar study subjects to different treatment groups and try to account (control) for factors other than the treatments that might affect the results.”

”Here's what they found:

• Of 3,017 studies analyzed from the last 15 years, 396 came to conclusions that reversed prior treatments or practice recommendations. This represented about 13% of randomized controlled trials appearing in these journals and about 6% of their original research papers.
• The most common conditions were cardiovascular disease, preventive medicine, and critical care medicine (such as care received in an intensive care unit).
• Medications, procedures, and vitamins accounted for about two-thirds of the reversals.“

Well shit …if I read that correctly more than 10% reversals recommended… that seems kinda high.

Well, at least we can trust our scientists, right. Crud, apparently not according to our friends at UC Berkeley Science department

https://undsci.berkeley.edu/understanding-science-101/the-social-side-of-science-a-human-and-community-endeavor/human-endeavor-human-biases/

“Because science is a human endeavor, it benefits from our best traits – our curiosity, creativity, and perseverance. Unfortunately, it can also be affected by some of our worst motivations and beliefs – like racism, sexism, ageism, ableism, homophobia, and other forms of prejudice. These prejudices have shaped and continue to shape the course of science in many ways.”

Hmmm, now that I think about it that may explain a few things. I don’t want to not trust the science but it’s not looking good if your medical science came about before the ‘90s and you are a woman.

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/gender-bias-in-healthcare#consequences

“Inequity in medical research reinforces gender bias. In the past, many scientists believed that males made the best test subjects because they do not have menstrual cycles and cannot become pregnant. This meant that a vast amount of research only involved male participants.
However, the important biological differences between the sexes can influence how diseases, drugs, and other therapies affect people. As a result, many studies from before the 1990s are flawed.

The lack of inclusivity in studies has left doctors with a more limited understanding of the health of female and intersex people.
Meanwhile, a lack of awareness about this disparity may fuel gender bias because it can contribute to misunderstanding between doctors and patients.”

Ending the bold comments now because they are annoying me…but the rest will be my opinion

Ok I’m guessing by now you’re getting my point.

I’ll say it loud and clear right now. I get vaccines, I avail myself to all kinds of medicine. I don’t think there are big conspiracies trying to kill, control, or other nonsense. I trust my doctors.

Now I personally think that people who blindly follow science are just as dangerous as those who fully reject it. Everything regarding medicine and treatment (well, all science for that matter) should be viewed through a critical lense and should be fully questioned. We should never lay ourselves down to the almighty science alter and leave our common sense behind. I said I trust my doctors, but you bet your life I’m looking things up on my own. I’m using reputable sources and I’m following up with questions if I have them.

Just last month a doctor advised me of a drug that could help a situation that I have. We spoke about it and I said that I didn’t want to rush into a decision. She was great. She sent me more information and I was able to read up on it. In the email she sent, ironically, she said she had made a mistake in our discussion. We were talking about using the drug as a preventative and the article/study she linked did not study the preventative ability just treatment. In the end I didn’t feel like the risks were tolerable for me and decided against the drug.

This is how medicine should work. It should be a discussion, it should use the best information available at that moment in time, it should have active participation by the patient, and it should include complementary treatment when appropriate.

Remember, this is the same establishment that encouraged women to smoke during pregnancy! ( https://ncds.info/home/what-have-we-learned/smoking-during-pregnancy/ )

Wow this got long but it was fun to research 🧐😁

Funnily enough, when people's friends, spouses and other family members, die or otherwise suffer serious consequences from treatable medical conditions because they eschewed proven treatments in favor of those that are either unproven or disproven, they tend to become intolerant of the the snake oil salesmen (and the products they hawk) that resulted in serious harm to their loved ones.

It isn't virtuous to believe in exploiting the suffering of vulnerable people.

Darwin had a point. Perhaps they are stepping up the cleaning of the gene pool.

You didn’t understand my post.

@saltinesandcoffeecups

Now I personally think that people who blindly follow science are just as dangerous as those who fully reject it. Everything regarding medicine and treatment (well, all science for that matter) should be viewed through a critical lense and should be fully questioned. We should never lay ourselves down to the almighty science alter and leave our common sense behind. I said I trust my doctors, but you bet your life I’m looking things up on my own. I’m using reputable sources and I’m following up with questions if I have them.

Just last month a doctor advised me of a drug that could help a situation that I have. We spoke about it and I said that I didn’t want to rush into a decision. She was great. She sent me more information and I was able to read up on it. In the email she sent, ironically, she said she had made a mistake in our discussion. We were talking about using the drug as a preventative and the article/study she linked did not study the preventative ability just treatment. In the end I didn’t feel like the risks were tolerable for me and decided against the drug.

This is how medicine should work. It should be a discussion, it should use the best information available at that moment in time, it should have active participation by the patient, and it should include complementary treatment when appropriate.

I completely agree with this. Science isn't infallible and pharma most certainly isn't. It's one of the most compromised industries on the planet. And doctors are not Gods. Reading literature with an open mind and being sceptical of the motives of developers and manufacturers is sensible. Engaging with and (as far as possible) researching your own health are just common sense. No one should blindly take their GP's advice at face value without asking questions or being alert to the fact that different medicines can have wildly different outcomes in different bodies.

But there's a huge difference between acknowledging that complementary medicine can play a supportive role in medical care with appropriate safeguards and swapping out medicines backed by decades of research and practice in favour of untested quackery. A lot of the rhetoric behind complementary medicine starts from the premise that its "natural" as opposed to "unnatural" and therefore automatically safer and healthier.

The problem is that this narrative is so seductive, particularly for people who are vulnerable or seriously ill, that it can become a siren call. And a lot of people are using this either to promote themselves or to manipulate these vulnerable people.

@Thepeopleversuswork absolutely agree.

I didn’t add my thoughts on alternative or complementary medicine mostly because that would have needed a whole other line of research and sources and it was more than adequately covered by others.

That and I like to remind people that settled science isn’t really a thing. It’s settled today but tomorrow may bring us new research that will flip us on our heads 😁

Depends on the type of cancer.

My son had stage 3 non hodgkins lymphoma which is considered to be advanced but the prognosis, even at stage 3 and stage 4 with NHL is excellent. I was told that my son had a 90% chance of the cancer not coming back after treatment.

YANBU @YourAmplePlumPoster.

Don't get me wrong I love complimentary medicines. And I'll admit the power of placebo, but the absolute shysters who peddle cures? As a PP said, they deserve a special place in hell.

From the con artist shilling his Cure For Cancer because his granda was a rabbi tothe big bucks fuckers who rob the vulnerable, sick, and dying /bereaved. Like Louise Hay.

I think there is a line to drawn between things that actually do a job and things that make you feel better.

When my mother had terminal cancer she would go to the hospice one day a week with other women with the same cancer (breast).

They would do arts and crafts, talk, have a nice lunch with a glass of wine, a talk / seminar (the man who brought his guide dog was popular) she would get her nails done have beauty treatments and she felt better.

No one is going to suggest nail varnish and a glass of wine cures cancer, or is even a treatment.

I am so sorry for what you went through. I remain baffled by the rejection of Western medicine among certain circles and I think it has something to do with Post Colonialism Marxism on University campuses. Everything Western is evil and something to do with the Nasty White Man.

Apple Cider Vinegar: How Instagram wellness guru Belle Gibson faked cancer – and caused a scandal - BBC Culture https://share.google/r48ymxmb3CHmtMjUf
A cautionary tale.

In the case of the Jehovahs Witnesses who refuse blood transfusions for their children, jail time. The same as the loons whose kids die of measles and other transmittable diseases easily cured by vaccines.

I wonder of King Charles was talked out of his infatuation with alternative medicine and is doing the chemo.

Not at all. It is a patient's right to choose any, or no treatment. Charlatans who sell ideas like an organic paleo diet cures cancer are pond life as far as im concerned. You come across examples when, given that this special diet did not magically cure their can er, so they move to chemo at which point the disease ismuch more advanced and often untreatable.

Those who double down and remark that the patients dying actually proved their theory (on the diet for 2y but when she tried chemo she was dead 6 weeks later) frankly need mincing.

I think they need to go to jail.

I agree although some foods do have health benefits with apple cider vinegar being one of them. It has been shown to assist in weight loss among other things though not significantly IMO. I take Mounjaro instead 😀

My son leads a normal life fully integrated into society taking clozapine. Without it he will be hallucinating and will kill or kill himself as its paranoid schizophrenia. We had the ridiculous RD Laing school of thought back in the seventies who thought untreated schizophrenia was some kind of rebellion against capitalism. The joke was that his so called clinic was burned down by a paranoid schizophrenic.

I've got no patience for the folks peddling medical misinformation.

When my father was dying of terminal cancer I had a 'friend' hand me a printed out sheet of bollocks from the internet about how spirulina would cure him. Her absolute ignorance, to be honest, utterly dumbfounded me. These days, she has gone down the conspiracy theory hole to the point where her life is an absolute mess.

She believes she knows all sorts of secrets - Trump is saving the world from a pedo ring, big salad can cure anyone of all ills, and satanic rituals are happening here, there and everywhere.

My advice to anyone who knows someone that thinks silly things like shoving a rose quartz up your vag, Kenco up your ass, or giving yourself a good de-working will get rid of whatever disease is killing you - keep distance. It's a spiral of nonsense. These folks do not come back to reality - they keep going down that hole.

Oddly enough in the United States it's the right wingers who are now rejecting conventional medicine. America, the official home of conspiracy theories and anti-vax kookery.

That reminds me of Gwyneth Paltrow promoting shoving stone eggs up yourself. A shameless huckster of nonsense, that one is.

Yikes, sorry about your dad. Spirulina was hot snake oil back in the 80s and 90s. I didn't know people were still going on about it. I have taken it briefly for the one thing it seems to have some effect on, which is acid tummy, because it's alkaline and contains chlorophyll. It wasn't effective enough to justify the price though. Never heard of it being used for cancer. Crazy!