Gender swap situation

[TenThousandYears]

I know you're all probably fed up hearing about this subject...I just need to vent.

DD has been friends with "Sally" for 10 years. (Both 14) Since nursery. In the last few months Sally has decided to change gender and now wants to be called " Ron"

DD just can't wrap her head around this. If she slips up, she gets nasty looks from "Ron" and so she's treading on eggshells.

Ron's brother still refers to Ron as Sally so DD is very confused by it all.

I'm on DDs side. Personally, I would hate to be in her shoes right now. I think if you meet someone and are introduced to them as whomever then that's easier to accept than having to change names and pronouns of someone you've been friends with for 10 years. On TV shows people just accept this straight away and move on but I'm not convinced that it's really that easy.

I also think 14 is a bit young for these changes but that's just my personal opinion.

Are me and my child horrible people for not being able to accept this right away?

What offends you so much about me having a different opinion? I know you want to change my mind but that’s not going to happen, just as I know you won’t change your opinion.

Sorry, what do you mean by different? Or opinion? Have you changed the meaning of those words too? I can’t reply until you define every word you use.

If my friend wants me to say that Jesus is the son of God or wants me to say grace before we have dinner together and I decline to do that, would it make me a shitty friend?

You have a way with words. I love it

It's actually very sad. Throwing around insults on a thread where parents are discussing (most very sensitively) how to navigate a teenage trend that's being enforced by compulsion and accusations of bigotry.
We really are letting children down by insisting that they must ignore reality. Sally / Ron is no doubt vulnerable and confused (given everything the Cass Report revealed about the make up of children caught up in this). So it's really important that parents are allowed to discuss the implications without the seething fury of transactivists condemning everything except capitulation.

It really matters that parents speak freely about this if we're to support our children as they navigate all this.

You are not horrible people. DD may lose her friendship with Sally , but she might not.

DD had a friend like this. She declared herself a man and called herself Bob. She liked other girls who were pretending to be men. Her parents and DD and myself still called her Susan.

Susan then declared she was called Dave, then Harry, then Pete.. you get the idea. We continued to call her Susan.

By the time she left school, she was identifying as Susan and as pansexual.

Susan and DD are still best friends.

Please can you answer my question of whether male teenagers who use she pronouns should be allowed to change with girls?

Do you think this is kind to girls?

Mary wasn't telling you her sex had changed though.

I am with your daughter OP, it is difficult and is a bit of a minefield.

The trouble with gender is that it is a construct , increasingly ( and I am not critical of this) a personal, internal construct. The individuality and uniqueness inherent within gender identity is all part of it.
The trouble is that someone's internal chosen reality and identity may be at odds / not coherent with their external appearance or who they have been known as previously by friends and relatives.
Then it is these people who are vilified when they occasionally get confused or can't keep up.
That isn't really fair in my mind.
A bit more tolerance and understanding all around perhaps.
But that doesn't seem to go down well if voiced as a possibility ....

yes but you are changing the meaning of the word. You would be using "he" to refer to a woman.

But again, people can pretty much do as they like, dress as they like, pretend to themselves all they like. Right up until it starts to affect me, then they will meet a pushback on some of it.

Well, that wasn’t the point of the post and we are detracting from. The original discussion but I think some unisex changing rooms are a solution.

Correct

I wish this madness would end, it’s exhausting

There are ways you can do your best to avoid fucking up. Avoiding using their name at all as much as you possibly can is one of them. Calling them "my friend" or "this lovely human" and they/them are others.

If your DD is trying but occasionally fucks up, their friend (see what I did there) shouldn't be a sod about it - but humans are messy complicated little beings and 14 year old humans even more so.

Is this the first whiff of transgenderism in ‘Sally’ that your DD has noticed? I mean, has it come completely out of the blue?

I have a friend whose son became her daughter, but she discussed this stuff at length with friends. They even helped her choose her new name. Similar age to yours.

No it's not detracting. I want to understand how far using preferred pronouns go for you.

In schools in a city in the South of England girls are forced to change for PE with boys who use 'she' pronouns. There are no single sex options for the girls.

How do you think this impacts the girls?

Because this is where your 'be kind' it's just pronouns leads.

It’s not “kind” to pretend to a child confused about their identity that they are the opposite sex.

It is kind to support them and teach them to accept their body, personality and their preferences for what they are.

It is kind to say to a tom boyish girl that she absolutely can have short hair, wear boyish clothes and take part in typically more boyish activities.

It’s kind to say to a girl, whether gender non conforming or not, that it’s absolutely fine and normal to be attracted to other girls.

It is not kind to lie, pretend she is a boy who can grow up to be a man, and it is not kind to let her believe that taking synthetic testosterone and surgically operating on her female body to remove her healthy breasts and create a fake phallus from the muscle tissue on her arm or thigh will make her male. It will lead her on a path to sterility, permanent medication and lifelong health complications.

Read some detransitioners’ stories to hear first hand what health problems they have as a result of adults “being kind” to them.

Fine, have a phase, change your name even, experiment with clothes, hair and make up. But it doesn’t charge who you really are.

@Sabire9

"Most people have a gender identity which is concomitant with their biological sex"

Please could you give me a few examples of female gender identity please?

How is it bigoted to not want girls to conform to ridiculous ideas of male/female gender bollocks?

You’re sporty and outgoing, hate pink and want to wear your hair very short and play football so you must really be a boy?? Seriously?

This is the bollocks that we need to stamp out, instead of pretending to girls they’re obviously born in the wrong body because they’re not being feminine enough.

Trans is just another fad at this age and supporting delusional ideas of gender limitations is only going to lead to further harm to those poor kids later on.

I’ve offered a solution. I have been an inpatient in hospitals several times with trans women on my ward with no issues. It is not something that worries me but if girls are upset that trans girls are in their changing room, then surely the answer is another changing area for the trans girls? I worked at a college, we had a set of toilets that were used by trans students.

If it was actually "Ron" i would have my daughter change the Sally's ringtone to Mrs Weasleys howler sound bite....

@ninjahamster

You say you think some unisex changing rooms are a solutions for teenage girls?

You have to be kidding?

What teenage girls want to change in front of teenage boys?

WTF!!

This. By all means have an opinion on trans issues but to pretend your child can't learn a new name is ridiculous! 2 thirds of the staff in my school have changed names since I've worked there and even the 4 year olds have coped.

Alongside single sex?

Ah sorry! I did that really annoying thing of posting the OP! I apologise!