Gender swap situation

[TenThousandYears]

I know you're all probably fed up hearing about this subject...I just need to vent.

DD has been friends with "Sally" for 10 years. (Both 14) Since nursery. In the last few months Sally has decided to change gender and now wants to be called " Ron"

DD just can't wrap her head around this. If she slips up, she gets nasty looks from "Ron" and so she's treading on eggshells.

Ron's brother still refers to Ron as Sally so DD is very confused by it all.

I'm on DDs side. Personally, I would hate to be in her shoes right now. I think if you meet someone and are introduced to them as whomever then that's easier to accept than having to change names and pronouns of someone you've been friends with for 10 years. On TV shows people just accept this straight away and move on but I'm not convinced that it's really that easy.

I also think 14 is a bit young for these changes but that's just my personal opinion.

Are me and my child horrible people for not being able to accept this right away?

It’s bloody hard to remember a new name.
When I changed my surname when I got married I signed my maiden name hundreds of times as it was the name I was used to.
An old school friend has also changed her name from say Mary to Jane and I am forever calling her Mary as that’s what I’ve called her for 30 odd years.
It’s hard.
mis-naming isn’t done on purpose so your DD’s friend needs to be a bit more tolerant.

What a load of old navel gazing nonsense.

Sally can call herself what she likes, but being off for people making mistakes is ridiculous.

It's all so controlling.

And no Sally will never be male, no matter if she decides to use breast binders/ take testosterone or otherwise damage her female body. She can't compel others to believe she is now suddenly male either.

Everything else aside, if someone told me that henceforth their name is Ron and not Sally then I would respect that and call them Ron.

My son had a very close friend in his friend group school (Susan, who because Martin (names changed)). Nothing at all in that friendship group altered.

Get her to throw a 'Ron' or two in. And after that, ignore him and talk to others in the group. It isn't worth losing her whole friendship group over.

Your child needs to pull away if her friend is demanding pronouns and giving dirty looks for failing to comply. The other child has mental health issues and your child is not responsible for providing emotional support.

If this ends up being a very toxic friendship of unlimited demands for compliance this can lead to your child being bullied by the other child and her "supporter" group.

It would be different if the other child accepted that your child is doing her best. But if the relationship is reduced to your child feeling as if she is threading on egg shells its already an abusive relationship.

So MN's LTB rules apply.

You need to explain that a healthy relationship needs to be a two way street. Time changes people and sometimes this results in radical changes to friendships. That its ok for your child to focus on what makes her happy in the relationship and if its not working she is 100% to make the changes she needs to make the friendship work or to reduce the interactions or even to end the friendship

She can try having an open conversation with the other child and set out her boundaries and her needs. The other child can choose to accept that your child has rights, need and wants too which must to be reflected in the way she treat your child.

If the other child wants the friendship to only be about her wants then your child has the obligation to love herself decide what is best for her and if needed walk away.

I suspect that as they are 14 the other child will be too self involved to put the work in to save the friendship. Its a comming of age issue where teens are so busy trying to become adults that some cant manage to agree to disagree.

Another important thing will be that your child is not pulled into a conflict situation by others over this. Some people love creating drama and the girls friendship group will have at least one child who will create drama for fun. Even if she trusts the other person involved in any discussion your daughter needs to refuse to badmouth the other girl (in person or via tec) and learn some standard "no comment" phrases to close down conversations.

Best of luck

So, just to clarify, you'd still call her 'she', the correct pronoun?

Very wise advice.

The reason there has been no discussion about this issue is because Stonewall called for #nodebate and anyone who has spoken about it has been harrassed, threatened and some have lost their jobs.
Most people are gender non-conforming. It's "Trans" that forces people to conform to outdated stereotypes.

When I was at school, it took us children forever to properly remember a teacher's new name after they had married or divorced.

Often, they just resigned themselves to getting used to it until the next year, with the new intake of children who never knew them by any other name.

It was hard enough for a lot of the younger ones (including me at that age) not to call their teacher 'Mum' or 'Dad' - although, interestingly, I never recall any child accidentally calling a female teacher 'Dad' or a male teacher 'Mum', as somebody's sex is such a latent, instinctive part of our mental processing faculties.

People don't normally change sex after marriage though. School children don't normally get married either.

I really really am interested in what leads people not to see the shift in power dynamic here.

There are clearly posters who believe that Sally has the right to compel others to call her Ron and to consider her to now be male.

There are clearly posters who consider it 'bigoted' for a OP's child to consider Sally is still female?

This gives Sally all of the power in this relationship. It's very unhealthy.
Why should Sally have such power over her friend?

We can't have reasonable discussions because people like you screamed, "no debate", at us for years, we tried.

Ron? RON? Of all the names he/she could have chosen, why that ?

Nope, I would use he, their preferred pronoun.

Pretending a girl has become a boy is not the same as recognising that someone has gotten married or divorced. Pronoun are not "just" a name change.

The other child is demanding that the OP remembers a lie. That the OPs child uses terms she knows are not true when the child demands she use the male sex words for her.

The OPs child has a right to be allowed to her own terms to describe others.

And if you are a teacher you should be aware that when it gets to the point that a child feels that she is walking on eggshells over an honest mistake then there is a problem. A healthy friendship will not result in a child feeling like that

My thoughts exactly

I’m sure you know what response to this you’ll get on Mumsnet where the prevailing view on trans issues is out of step with the general population.

However, I personally think you and your daughter need to grow up and stop making this about your daughter instead of the friend, who is apparently going through some stuff. If your daughter is a decent kid and wants to be kind to her close friend, she’ll be kind to her and call the friend whatever she wants to be called because that’s basic respect. She doesn’t have to believe her friend is a boy to respect their wishes. Maybe the friend will indeed decide one day that they really are Sally after all, but who cares? It’s not actually difficult to just call someone what they want to be called.

I wouldn't have a problem with the friend wanting to be called Ron but I would have a problem and advise DD to fade the friendship out if Ron is getting moody when DD makes a "mistake". If Ron wants to live in a fantasy world, that's fine, but everyone else isn't obliged to join them.

Ah right, the incorrect pronoun then.
Thanks for the clarification.
Sally is a girl, Sally is she.

I think there is more too it than that sorry. Your DD will make mistakes on the name of course she will, I can't get any of my family DC names right so I go through the whole lot every time 😅. Also having a girl best friend and a boy best friend are totally different. What is Ron's sexuality? Are they still allowed to do sleepovers now if Ron is male? So many questions. It's naive for people to say this doesn't change anything regarding to friendship group. Of course it does. Your DD and Ron need to figure this out. 14 is also a brutal age for puberty poor things.

Is the school accepting of Ron? So is he using the female or male spaces?

Regardless of any of that. Your DD is allowed to make the odd mistake without black looks. That's not fair x

Dd14 is also having this situation crop up although mostly with people she's only known since high school.

I tell her to use Sally's knew name, think of it like a nickname, but that Sally is still female no matter how much she might want to pretend she's not.

I'd tell my DD that it's polite and friendly to call people by whatever name they prefer, even if it's unusual eg a girl choosing a boy's name.

I would also emphasise that nobody can compel you to believe what someone else says you should eg religion, politics etc. So if you don't believe that it's possible to change sex (and I don't) then nobody can make you. I'd tell Sally that I'm happy to call her Ron from now on but she can't force me to believe that she's now a boy. I'll respect that she believes she is a boy in return for her respect for my belief that she isn't. If she can't do that then it's best we drop the friendship so that nobody becomes distressed.

I gave my views on trans issues, and in an HE environment have worked with plenty of people who have transitioned. Out of respect I would never purposely misgender someone, but I do get confused when my DC refers to a friend as they. I just think she’s talking about more than one person. And that probably is becoming more of a generational thing.

And if you are a teacher you should be aware that when it gets to the point that a child feels that she is walking on eggshells over an honest mistake then there is a problem. A healthy friendship will not result in a child feeling like that

Regardless of anything else, this will always be true.

It doesn't feel like a healthy friendship for your daughter OP. I'd be encouraging her to disengage as much as possible (could be in a very low key way)

Its not power? What a very odd thing to say.

If my friend gets a new name or hair do or discovers they have Italian ancestry I either celebrate with them or stop calling myself their friend. Its not a very big deal. Its not “compelled speech” ir “an exercise in power” its just life in all its delightful vagary.