Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Gender swap situation

831 replies

TenThousandYears · 24/06/2025 10:18

I know you're all probably fed up hearing about this subject...I just need to vent.

DD has been friends with "Sally" for 10 years. (Both 14) Since nursery. In the last few months Sally has decided to change gender and now wants to be called " Ron"

DD just can't wrap her head around this. If she slips up, she gets nasty looks from "Ron" and so she's treading on eggshells.

Ron's brother still refers to Ron as Sally so DD is very confused by it all.

I'm on DDs side. Personally, I would hate to be in her shoes right now. I think if you meet someone and are introduced to them as whomever then that's easier to accept than having to change names and pronouns of someone you've been friends with for 10 years. On TV shows people just accept this straight away and move on but I'm not convinced that it's really that easy.

I also think 14 is a bit young for these changes but that's just my personal opinion.

Are me and my child horrible people for not being able to accept this right away?

OP posts:
TheKeatingFive · 27/06/2025 08:02

HerNeighbourTotoro · 27/06/2025 06:26

How often do you see these convos? I am a parent with kids in two primary schools, not an issue. I taught as supply in 10+ schools in the last few years (a few of these in schools with a number or trans people)- not an issue. I am however sure there are a few very outspoken parents here and there, but you make it seem like there is a wave of thousands of parents in each school demanding girls to share toilets, and there arent.
Are the parents you supposedly see ''all the time" even parents of trans children? Or virtue signallers who have no clue and give everyone a bad name?

The person I quoted seems to think all trans activists want to burn and rape women- I know a few and they are the gentlest, nicest people (much nicer than many people on this thread)- really maybe go and educate yourself, you may be surprised most trans people dont want the end of women really.

I don't think all trans activists want to rape or burn women, but there are proportion who have no qualms about saying they do.

https://terfisaslur.com

The issue is less about numbers and more that women are being told that they are supposed to accept these exact men into their spaces and hey are bigots if they don't.

And seriously, you can't see the colossal misogyny in that, not to mention a total disregard for women's safety?

TERF is a slur

Documenting the abuse, harassment and misogyny of transgender identity politics

https://terfisaslur.com

MumOfYoungTransAdult · 27/06/2025 08:14

HerNeighbourTotoro · 27/06/2025 06:20

Just wanted to add I dont understand why your daughter is confused her brother calles Ron by the given name- many trans people are not accepted by their families (I had students in the past whose parents never supported them, the result was very sad for the kids). The brother may probably be a transphobe too. Not uncommon.

If your daughter does not want to continue the friednship because she cant give Ron the minimum of respect by doing something so simple as using the name they want, she should step away and do Ron a favour and let him find friends who will be actual friends. Ron is probably better off without a 'friend' like this.

Ron doing whatever he wants with his identity has nothing to do with your daughter, he's not forcing her to be trans or transition, he only wants for her tto use a certain name not another. Instead both of you are probably more likely going on a cruisade against an imaginary problem and punishing him because you disagree with the whole issue. The kid is just a kid and has a right to explore his identity without your judgement.

And here's the thing. A brother has known that his sister is female and has related to her as his sister for the whole of their shared childhoods and now he is accused of "probable" transphobia for not immediately accepting her as a boy.

What a cruel thing to say. Can you not hear how blinkered, intolerant and ignorant it sounds?

TheKeatingFive · 27/06/2025 08:23

MumOfYoungTransAdult · 27/06/2025 08:14

And here's the thing. A brother has known that his sister is female and has related to her as his sister for the whole of their shared childhoods and now he is accused of "probable" transphobia for not immediately accepting her as a boy.

What a cruel thing to say. Can you not hear how blinkered, intolerant and ignorant it sounds?

Exactly. It's one thing to try to reinvent your own reality. But entirely another to try to do that to everyone else.

Tandora · 27/06/2025 09:29

croftplaced · 27/06/2025 07:40

@HerNeighbourTotoro @Tandora

You just can’t answer the questions can you?

Doesn’t that tell you something.

Stop and think what you are supporting.

What I am supporting?

I am supporting understanding , tolerance and non-discrimination against people based on a fundamental characteristic of their person, which they can’t help and which , despite being different from the majority, is just a-ok . there is nothing wrong with being trans at all, it’s just different.

That’s what I am supporting.

Tandora · 27/06/2025 09:33

TheKeatingFive · 27/06/2025 08:23

Exactly. It's one thing to try to reinvent your own reality. But entirely another to try to do that to everyone else.

Why does your “reality” need to involve insisting who someone else is and what words should be used to describe/ address them, despite how offensive and upsetting it is to the actual person in question ?

Maybe do a little reflection on that.

marshmallowpuff · 27/06/2025 10:00

Tandora · 27/06/2025 09:29

What I am supporting?

I am supporting understanding , tolerance and non-discrimination against people based on a fundamental characteristic of their person, which they can’t help and which , despite being different from the majority, is just a-ok . there is nothing wrong with being trans at all, it’s just different.

That’s what I am supporting.

How is it a “fundamental characteristic of their person”? Please say more.

If it is, why has the number of people with this characteristic increased so, so dramatically in such a short time since ideas about it began circulating widely on social media sites and the internet?

If It’s a fundamental characteristic, why did the GIDS data show a 4,000% increase in the number of girls referred to them as “trans” in the 2010s?

TheKeatingFive · 27/06/2025 10:11

Tandora · 27/06/2025 09:33

Why does your “reality” need to involve insisting who someone else is and what words should be used to describe/ address them, despite how offensive and upsetting it is to the actual person in question ?

Maybe do a little reflection on that.

Edited

The reality is that this child is female.

Every single person knows that this child is female. What's going on in this child's head about their 'gender identity' does absolutely nothing to change that.

Asking people to disregard their own reality, the evidence of their own sense is Orwellian

The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command -1984

Maybe do some reflection on that ...

Tandora · 27/06/2025 10:43

marshmallowpuff · 27/06/2025 10:00

How is it a “fundamental characteristic of their person”? Please say more.

If it is, why has the number of people with this characteristic increased so, so dramatically in such a short time since ideas about it began circulating widely on social media sites and the internet?

If It’s a fundamental characteristic, why did the GIDS data show a 4,000% increase in the number of girls referred to them as “trans” in the 2010s?

Being trans is natural form of human diversity that has existed throughout history and across cultures. It very likely has a durable and heritable polygenic underpinning.

It's not that the number of trans people has increased dramatically in the UK, it's that with growing awareness and recognition/ visibility, more people have felt able to "come out".
There is also be an element of young people exploring their identities - which may include experimenting with clothes, names, and even sometimes pronouns. This doesn't mean they will settle on being trans, and certainly doesn't meant that they will be seeking/ or will be provided, any medical interventions.

Exactly the same dynamics can be seen with increased recognition, visibility and acceptance of gay people. I think these days it's roughly 1/10 young people who are gay, which is much higher than anyone would have thought in the 1960s. Prevalence of transness (depending on how it is measured) will be much lower,. Although there is no settled data on this, estimates currently suggest perhaps around 0.2% of the pop. I think it's likely to be somewhat higher than this, but still rare.

Codlingmoths · 27/06/2025 10:43

HerNeighbourTotoro · 27/06/2025 06:26

How often do you see these convos? I am a parent with kids in two primary schools, not an issue. I taught as supply in 10+ schools in the last few years (a few of these in schools with a number or trans people)- not an issue. I am however sure there are a few very outspoken parents here and there, but you make it seem like there is a wave of thousands of parents in each school demanding girls to share toilets, and there arent.
Are the parents you supposedly see ''all the time" even parents of trans children? Or virtue signallers who have no clue and give everyone a bad name?

The person I quoted seems to think all trans activists want to burn and rape women- I know a few and they are the gentlest, nicest people (much nicer than many people on this thread)- really maybe go and educate yourself, you may be surprised most trans people dont want the end of women really.

‘On school groups’- where I live there is a large fb group which talks about schools. So I don’t know who they are beyond parents in my city, but if a parent posts something eg someone whose child is starting schools next year and looking at several and people suggested checking the toilet set up for be easy and close so the little ones who find it challenging don’t get too intimidated, and someone else shares they were shocked toilets were mixed so they should check that too, or that their 7yo was really uncomfortable about boys in the toilet, then multiple others will call them disgusting and judgemental and pile on to shout them down and say who even checks the toilet blocks you should be lucky if that’s all you’re worried about. And others will explain the way it can really challenge their confidence in reception if they’re nervous to go and withholding or having accidents but apparently they aren’t loving parents either, just bigots. The mind boggles how all these parents look themselves in the mirror every morning 🤷‍♀️ As far as I know they are all real people with kids at school? You don’t have to actively want to burn and rape women to be actively supporting making little girls uncomfortable and telling them they can’t have boundaries while mentally giving yourself a trophy for being a better person than everyone else.

TalkingintheDark · 27/06/2025 10:48

marshmallowpuff · 27/06/2025 10:00

How is it a “fundamental characteristic of their person”? Please say more.

If it is, why has the number of people with this characteristic increased so, so dramatically in such a short time since ideas about it began circulating widely on social media sites and the internet?

If It’s a fundamental characteristic, why did the GIDS data show a 4,000% increase in the number of girls referred to them as “trans” in the 2010s?

And if it’s a fundamental characteristic, why is the number of detransitioners, particularly young women, steadily growing?

The stories from the US are especially hard to hear, girls coerced into testosterone and double mastectomies at 14 or 16, some with their entire female reproductive system removed a couple of years later too.

I believe the youngest age for double mastectomy over there was 12.

TWELVE.

But this is the right side of history, apparently.

TalkingintheDark · 27/06/2025 10:50

Tandora · 27/06/2025 10:43

Being trans is natural form of human diversity that has existed throughout history and across cultures. It very likely has a durable and heritable polygenic underpinning.

It's not that the number of trans people has increased dramatically in the UK, it's that with growing awareness and recognition/ visibility, more people have felt able to "come out".
There is also be an element of young people exploring their identities - which may include experimenting with clothes, names, and even sometimes pronouns. This doesn't mean they will settle on being trans, and certainly doesn't meant that they will be seeking/ or will be provided, any medical interventions.

Exactly the same dynamics can be seen with increased recognition, visibility and acceptance of gay people. I think these days it's roughly 1/10 young people who are gay, which is much higher than anyone would have thought in the 1960s. Prevalence of transness (depending on how it is measured) will be much lower,. Although there is no settled data on this, estimates currently suggest perhaps around 0.2% of the pop. I think it's likely to be somewhat higher than this, but still rare.

That “very likely” is doing a lot of heavy lifting there.

Tandora · 27/06/2025 10:59

TalkingintheDark · 27/06/2025 10:50

That “very likely” is doing a lot of heavy lifting there.

Not really. It's similar to many areas of really complex medicine. An analogy would be something like ASD. We do not yet have the science to identify precise causes, and these appear to be diverse and complex, however, there is strong evidence that both genetic and environmental developmental factors play a role. Nobody questions that ASD is a fundamental characteristic over which an individual has any control, with a durable biological underpinning.

TheKeatingFive · 27/06/2025 11:00

Gender nonconformity has always been a feature of human experience.

Grouping gender non-conforming people with confused teenagers struggling with puberty and adult men who like wearing women's clothes under the 'trans' umbrella is a distinctly 21st century phenomenon.

TalkingintheDark · 27/06/2025 11:00

Horseebooks · 26/06/2025 22:19

I’ve had ‘we can see you’ from GC types on here before. It’s all a bit Game Of Thrones high sparrow for me tbh

And yet you don’t seem interested in clearly putting your POV across, here, on a discussion forum, where everyone has the chance to state their opinions.

Funny how you don’t want to tell people whether you think it’s ok for middle aged men who identify as women to be changing/showering alongside women and girls.

Are you not confident in your own opinions?

Tandora · 27/06/2025 11:01

I've had the "we see you" many many times too! It's really very creepy.

TheKeatingFive · 27/06/2025 11:02

Tandora · 27/06/2025 10:59

Not really. It's similar to many areas of really complex medicine. An analogy would be something like ASD. We do not yet have the science to identify precise causes, and these appear to be diverse and complex, however, there is strong evidence that both genetic and environmental developmental factors play a role. Nobody questions that ASD is a fundamental characteristic over which an individual has any control, with a durable biological underpinning.

There is diagnostic criteria for ASD.

There isn't for 'being trans'. It comes down to self declaration.

Tandora · 27/06/2025 11:06

TheKeatingFive · 27/06/2025 11:02

There is diagnostic criteria for ASD.

There isn't for 'being trans'. It comes down to self declaration.

There is diagnostic criteria for gender dysphoria, which is the diagnosis which provides a prerequisite for access to medical services.

Diagnostic criteria/ practices for ASD almost exclusively rely on self report of symptoms, with some aspects of clinical observation. Exactly the same for gender dysphoria.

TheKeatingFive · 27/06/2025 11:08

Tandora · 27/06/2025 11:06

There is diagnostic criteria for gender dysphoria, which is the diagnosis which provides a prerequisite for access to medical services.

Diagnostic criteria/ practices for ASD almost exclusively rely on self report of symptoms, with some aspects of clinical observation. Exactly the same for gender dysphoria.

But Stonewall have always been very clear that you don't need to be gender dysphoric to be 'trans'.

Tandora · 27/06/2025 11:17

TheKeatingFive · 27/06/2025 11:08

But Stonewall have always been very clear that you don't need to be gender dysphoric to be 'trans'.

No you don't, but you do need to have a diagnosis of gender dypshoria to have access to medical services.

TheKeatingFive · 27/06/2025 11:21

Tandora · 27/06/2025 11:17

No you don't, but you do need to have a diagnosis of gender dypshoria to have access to medical services.

Edited

But not to socially transition or legally transition.

Given the amount of detransitioners telling their stories, I think we should be extremely skeptical of the accuracy of the diagnostic criteria for gender dysphoria anyway. It is clearly not fit for purpose.

HerNeighbourTotoro · 27/06/2025 11:22

Codlingmoths · 27/06/2025 10:43

‘On school groups’- where I live there is a large fb group which talks about schools. So I don’t know who they are beyond parents in my city, but if a parent posts something eg someone whose child is starting schools next year and looking at several and people suggested checking the toilet set up for be easy and close so the little ones who find it challenging don’t get too intimidated, and someone else shares they were shocked toilets were mixed so they should check that too, or that their 7yo was really uncomfortable about boys in the toilet, then multiple others will call them disgusting and judgemental and pile on to shout them down and say who even checks the toilet blocks you should be lucky if that’s all you’re worried about. And others will explain the way it can really challenge their confidence in reception if they’re nervous to go and withholding or having accidents but apparently they aren’t loving parents either, just bigots. The mind boggles how all these parents look themselves in the mirror every morning 🤷‍♀️ As far as I know they are all real people with kids at school? You don’t have to actively want to burn and rape women to be actively supporting making little girls uncomfortable and telling them they can’t have boundaries while mentally giving yourself a trophy for being a better person than everyone else.

Ok so firstyly it turns out there is just one school group you experienced, not multiples.

Very clearly this is a problem of a few random parents on ONE whattsap group, and it's very silly to think this is reflective of the whole society or even trans community.

You are applying a statement to whole community you know nothing about not even being sure if the person making the statement is trans to begin with or has a trans child, I find it utterly bizarre you dont find it strange. What in your opinion makes these parents 'trans activists'? The fact someone is on a whattsap grouop and has a child in school does not make them an activist. I think you are very confused.

marshmallowpuff · 27/06/2025 11:25

Tandora · 27/06/2025 10:43

Being trans is natural form of human diversity that has existed throughout history and across cultures. It very likely has a durable and heritable polygenic underpinning.

It's not that the number of trans people has increased dramatically in the UK, it's that with growing awareness and recognition/ visibility, more people have felt able to "come out".
There is also be an element of young people exploring their identities - which may include experimenting with clothes, names, and even sometimes pronouns. This doesn't mean they will settle on being trans, and certainly doesn't meant that they will be seeking/ or will be provided, any medical interventions.

Exactly the same dynamics can be seen with increased recognition, visibility and acceptance of gay people. I think these days it's roughly 1/10 young people who are gay, which is much higher than anyone would have thought in the 1960s. Prevalence of transness (depending on how it is measured) will be much lower,. Although there is no settled data on this, estimates currently suggest perhaps around 0.2% of the pop. I think it's likely to be somewhat higher than this, but still rare.

I’m a historian. Being “trans” was unknown until the twentieth century, and in the early twentieth century (and before), a wish to be the opposite sex was understood as evidence of homosexuality, not “gender identity” (the concept of which also didn’t exist). I’ve written about this in more detail upthread.

Sexuality has been variously understood as linked to sex or not, depending on the historical period. A very small minority of same-sex attracted men sometimes crossdressed, for example in the “Molly houses” (gay brothels) of eighteenth-century London. But most same-sex attracted men did not crossdress, and were not thought of as necessarily “feminine” before the late nineteenth century/early 20th century. (In fact, in the Classical world, being attracted to boys was often seen as evidence of a man’s extreme masculinity.)

Men expressing the wish to be women were vanishingly rare to nonexistent before the twentieth century. In contrast, girls and women quite often wrote about wishing to be boys/men: this was historically not remotely understood as a desire to actually be a man, but as a quite natural response to the restrictions on freedom and expression faced by women compared to men. In the early twentieth century, “inversion theory” claimed women who felt they were “really” men inside were actually lesbian.

The current concept of being “trans” came into being in the second half of the twentieth century with the term “transsexual”. This was initially largely applied to a very small subset of men. “Transgender” as an idea and a word started to take shape from the 1970s onwards: but a lot of men and women who people have recently re-categorised as “trans” never saw themselves in that way, but instead as gay or butch men/lesbians.

The current conception of “trans” actually has much in common with the “inversion theories” of the early twentieth century, which argued that same-sex attracted people were “inverts” who had been born the wrong sex: “the masculine heart beating in the female breast”, as Havelock Ellis put it. (However, don’t get too excited: Ellis was a rather repugnant eugenicist who thought poor people and the “lower” races were “mental deficients” who should be “bred out”: he also could only get sexually excited by listening to women urinate — he was a great early proponent of “kink”). Anyway, “inversion” theories were quickly abandoned as offensive by gay and lesbian people in the second half of the twentieth century. (Interesting that they’ve effectively been revived as “gender ideology”, though.)

If you want to claim “trans” people have always been around, you need to produce some actual historical evidence of this: and evidence that isn’t just evidence of homosexuality, crossdressing, or rhetoric (hint: when Elizabeth I says she “has the heart and stomach of a man”, that isn’t evidence of her actually being trans: she’s using a rhetorical trope to defend her queendom as just as good as a kingdom).

You will have a hard time finding anything from the pre-1900 past that actually fits the contemporary idea of “trans”, because people just didn’t view themselves or the world in that way. And the idea of “transition” simply didn’t plausibly exist before the first public availability of both antibiotics and synthesised hormones in the postwar period, because nobody could have any “sex change”/gender confirming” medical treatment until then.

You claim that trans is a natural condition with a “durable and heritable underpinning” (what on earth does that mean? How can it be heritable, by definition? And where’s the evidence?) The reality is that trans, far from being anything innate, is largely a social contagion produced by a whole range of different factors and fashions. A 4,000% increase cannot remotely be down to “increased visibility” and people feeling they can “come out”. It doesn’t make any plausible statistical sense whatsoever.

Codlingmoths · 27/06/2025 11:25

Tandora · 27/06/2025 10:59

Not really. It's similar to many areas of really complex medicine. An analogy would be something like ASD. We do not yet have the science to identify precise causes, and these appear to be diverse and complex, however, there is strong evidence that both genetic and environmental developmental factors play a role. Nobody questions that ASD is a fundamental characteristic over which an individual has any control, with a durable biological underpinning.

See that strong evidence point you make for asd? The only strong medical evidence present for trans ‘causation’ is that is it is closely linked to autism, adhd, eds. There is probably also evidence that it is linked to experience - specifically and neglect.

Codlingmoths · 27/06/2025 11:26

*abuse and neglect

Tandora · 27/06/2025 11:27

TheKeatingFive · 27/06/2025 11:21

But not to socially transition or legally transition.

Given the amount of detransitioners telling their stories, I think we should be extremely skeptical of the accuracy of the diagnostic criteria for gender dysphoria anyway. It is clearly not fit for purpose.

First of all detransition is exceptionally rare. Estimated rates are below, for comparison, estimated rates of abortion regret, to name just one comparator.

Secondly, no you don't need a medical diagnosis to 'socially transition'. How on earth would one police such a thing?
You do, however, need a diagnosis of gender dysphoria to legally change your gender. There were attempts to change this in 2016 with proposed legislation to make legal changes of gender more accessible to trans people and reduce bureaucracy, but due to opposition these proposals were scrapped. It was this very argument that in fact sparked this whole dumpster fire of a political row. Prior to that nobody cared a trot about trans people.