Gender swap situation

[TenThousandYears]

I know you're all probably fed up hearing about this subject...I just need to vent.

DD has been friends with "Sally" for 10 years. (Both 14) Since nursery. In the last few months Sally has decided to change gender and now wants to be called " Ron"

DD just can't wrap her head around this. If she slips up, she gets nasty looks from "Ron" and so she's treading on eggshells.

Ron's brother still refers to Ron as Sally so DD is very confused by it all.

I'm on DDs side. Personally, I would hate to be in her shoes right now. I think if you meet someone and are introduced to them as whomever then that's easier to accept than having to change names and pronouns of someone you've been friends with for 10 years. On TV shows people just accept this straight away and move on but I'm not convinced that it's really that easy.

I also think 14 is a bit young for these changes but that's just my personal opinion.

Are me and my child horrible people for not being able to accept this right away?

@TheignT and of course, it's also rude to try and force people to see things your way and use the language you prefer despite their own needs and preferences.

Well maybe we should give Ron the benefit of the doubt if no threats have been made because as you say not all will react like that, why assume Ron will. To me it is about good manners. Actually that's given me an idea and family will all be addressed as Fatty Hitler in future. I wonder if they will like it?

It's about using a name, I doubt Ron is demanding a blood oath that everyone believes they are a different person.

And maybe Ron should give OP's daughter the benefit of the doubt?

I'm sure they won't like it, or they won't care, either way, fair is fair.

But, they haven't just changed their name, they are telling everyone they're a boy now, so I think they will probably expect more than just a name change, yes. OP says they expect new pronouns too, so it's not just name.

Well I suppose we should all stop trying to teach children about good manners. Nice world but I do have to make lunch for my disabled husband or he might get upset.

Good manners don't mean going along with everything someone says just because it would make them happy, though. A name, fine. Pronouns, no. It's not good manners to try and force your opinions on others either.

It's not much of a friendship if you go nuts because you cally Sally, Sally instead of Ron!

See where the power dynamics in this relationship lie. It's somehow considered rude not to call Sally, Ron, but not considered rude to demand Jess calls Sally, Ron.

The request was to lie.

Of course she can. Definitely. And if there were other options, that would 100% be my take on it. But as the OP has said, it's a small school. She'll likely end up without a friendship group.

I don't think the OP has suggested anything to lead you to this conclusion.

You seem extremely invested in this child staying in a friendship that is causing her problems. Why would that be?

Seriously! If her friend means that much to her your daughter would make the effort to use the pronouns sally wants! It’s not affecting your daughter and it’s likely to be hurting her friends feelings

She said she wants to do this as it's all making her uncomfortable but they are all in the same friend group and it's not a big school so she doesn't have much of a choice. The OPs own words.

I'm not the one obsessed with an ideology.

I'm not getting what you're getting from those words.

What ideology do you think I'm obsessed with?

good grief. and what if Mr Smith wants to be called Mrs Smith and all the children know he is a man and that it is against their own beliefs to indulge his nonsense?

🎶🎶Let it go, let it go, Turn away and slam the door🎶🎶

Same back atcha

😂

Are you suggesting that asserting that there are only two sexes and no one can change between the two is ‘blind arrogance’??

You appear to be deep in cult think.

It’s not just that though. OP said that she is demanding that not only must her new name be used but her friends must also change the way they speak and use wrong sex pronouns to refer to her in direct conversation with her. And then being nasty when she doesn’t want to do that.

I don’t think we should condone bullying and coercion in children.

And why is engaging in a complicated pretendy fantasy which involves becoming a medical patient with complex needs and negotiating difficult social relationships and legal structures which keep constantly reminding you that it all is really only a pretendy fantasy, any better for “the person” than just accepting that you’re not a woman?

Why don’t you ask this of a trans person in the real work. , with genuine curiosity ., and listen, really listen to their response. You might want to phrase the question in a less presumptuous and judgy way of course- but ask the question all the same. Listen to the answer. Hear what they have to say. You might learn something new.

Obviously.
because it’s not in the least bit rude to ask people to address you with your chosen name.
It is meanwhile rude to refuse to address people by the name they have requested you use.

As we keep pointing out @Tandora it doesn't matter how many conversations we have with transpeople - we are not going to find they have changed sex.

Most people are are happy to be supportive of how people dress or express themselves. But they aren't going to pretend that men can become women or vice versa.

I have. I work with a lot of young people who identify as various kinds of gender labels, from trans to nonbinary to genderfluid etc. And the answers one gets are not very self-reflective - they contain a large amount of wilful self-delusion, and a lot of uncritically recycled ideas garnered from online “communities”. What I definitely don’t hear is anything “new”.

There’s a lot of deliberate self-deception going on in the whole thing - from the unwillingness to hear anything negative about medical aspects of transition (“those old people had bad experiences but that won’t happen to me”); to fending off reality with online talking-points that are disconnected from the real world (“trans people are everywhere constantly peeing next to you in bathrooms and you just don’t notice them” — no, in real life they are extremely visible and are “clocked” by everyone, and people, especially women, are generally just politely not showing this or attempting not to engage). As I said, lots of pretendy fantasy, the kind which seems plausible on Tumblr or Discord, but not so much out in the real world.

I’ve never yet heard any trans person actually explain their experience without resorting to the usual cliches about liking stereotypically “feminine” things and “being born in the wrong body” and so on. And pretty much every single young trans person I know is also autistic/on the spectrum/has ADHD (if male), and/or has other forms of chronic physical or mental illness (if female). Which makes me suspect that lots of the “gender” discourse gets co-opted into other mental health issues and becomes part of someone’s “identity” that way; the discourse is also full of Americanisms (as above with “bathrooms”) that are clearly gleaned online but sound jarringly odd in a British context (trans teenagers are always very exercised about “bathroom surveillance”, and how this is all linked to threats to abortion rights, which is simply not applicable in the U.K.).

But as usual @Tandora, you’re suggesting that we simply don’t know or haven’t talked to any trans people — but in actual fact, rather a lot of what makes many of us conclude this is all pretendy fantasies, is actually having done so, and heard all the pretendy fantasies first hand!