Gender swap situation

[TenThousandYears]

I know you're all probably fed up hearing about this subject...I just need to vent.

DD has been friends with "Sally" for 10 years. (Both 14) Since nursery. In the last few months Sally has decided to change gender and now wants to be called " Ron"

DD just can't wrap her head around this. If she slips up, she gets nasty looks from "Ron" and so she's treading on eggshells.

Ron's brother still refers to Ron as Sally so DD is very confused by it all.

I'm on DDs side. Personally, I would hate to be in her shoes right now. I think if you meet someone and are introduced to them as whomever then that's easier to accept than having to change names and pronouns of someone you've been friends with for 10 years. On TV shows people just accept this straight away and move on but I'm not convinced that it's really that easy.

I also think 14 is a bit young for these changes but that's just my personal opinion.

Are me and my child horrible people for not being able to accept this right away?

I mean, I don't think people should be telling kids god is real or any of that either. I think they should be saying "Some people believe..."

This lie is worse because it erodes women's boundaries and safety. It's a safeguarding nightmare for kids. It can encourage kids down a path of medicalisation and surgery that they later regret. It allows men to trample all over women's rights and dignities. It's not a harmless lie like Santa at all. The fact you think it's remotely the same is worrying.

Teenagers know the difference between and men and women, so your analogies are irrelevant.

Asking them to deny the evidence of their eyes and ears is not acceptable.

“Anti-safeguarding” 😂 yeah sure. Because we teach children, respect, they are now at risk?

”Anti-science” well, that puts an end to all religious education then.

”Anti-women” No girl was put at risk by this child. If polices are written in a way that put kids at risk, challenge the policies, not the person.

The evidence is a person has made a request. You’re asking them to deny that.

The “lie” doesn’t do any of that. Polices written around that are the problem. The safeguarding of the individual child who chooses to go down that path is a totally separate issue from whether or not others should respect their choices.

So I make a request to be referred to as 'your highness' - are you going to comply with that?

No of course you aren't. Requests aren't necessarily reasonable.

In both scenarios, how you describe that bit is unimportant. What is important is the context, the prior relationship and the policies in place at the time.

Of course I will, your Highness. If that makes you feel good, I’m happy to do that. Why wouldn’t I?

It's about safeguarding all of the children, not just the trans one. When you lie that a bit and be a girl or vice versa, you make it impossible for them to speak up if they don't like changing in the presence of a trans person of the opposite sex, for example.

And, of course, respecting their choice is never just about using their new name, is it. You're expected to treat them as the sex they identify as in all cases, so you end up with boys in the girls' changing rooms and teenage girls who identify as boys sharing rooms with males on school trips.

And why does respect only ever go one way? Why can't the trans child respect that not everyone believes in gender identity or wants to use that language? It's not respectful to make people say and do things they do not believe to be true.

Of course it's anti women to remove the language that women have for describing themselves.

We do not teach religion as scientific fact. We teach it as a matter of faith / metaphysical belief.

Again, if remove the language for accurate description of sex, we cannot write safeguarding policies that protect children.

Imagine you're reading that in a newspaper or online.

Langiage constructs people's understanding of reality.

I have a first name no one uses. My family use a shortening I hate and I've been trying to get them to use my preferred shortening. Say my name is Elizabeth, family decided to call me Betty and since I was eleven I've said I want to be called Liz. Sixty years, I'm 71, of my preference being ignored. I would relax about the occasional slip but it is insulting to be constantly called something I hate and don't regard as my name.

Call Ron by Ron's chosen name. For me gender isn't the issue but respecting my choice is.

It's anti the individual to insist on using a name they have rejected.

I personally have no issue with the name. Just everything else.

I think it's more twattish to get annoyed when you're friends slip and make a mistake about this stuff to be honest. We're all only human, and mistakes happen. I still sometimes call my new dog by the old dog's name several years on.

I agree with this part @PhantomOTheParadise, respect works both ways. There is no world where someone should be betrayed for making an honest mistake. I hadn’t previously commented on the OP, but I think it makes sense for OP’s child to distance themselves from someone who seems to be a toxic friend. Hard to do if it is a small school, and maybe the thing to do is to have the parents / teachers involved in the discussion. I know a few trans people who are relaxed about mistakes and slip ups, not sure whether that is reflective of trans people as a whole, but I assume we will be more likely to see.hear examples of people being toxic about it because it makes for a good story whereas “hardly anyone has dead-named me and the few who did just slipped up”

But you are likely to use your friends name a lot, how often do you use their pronouns to them?

It might be fiction, but 1984 is a great introduction to why changing the meaning of words and mangling the language is problematic, and how it can be used to manipulate the population and force compliance.

Agreed. I just think they are different kinds of requests

The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command

I keep coming back to this

I would read further to understand the context.

If he did it, was he a friend? Was he accidentally in the wrong room? Had he asked her if it was ok? What happened next?

If she did it, was it unexpected? Had it been discussed before? What was their relationship? What happened next?

I wouldn’t assume anything, I’d look for the facts to establish the actual reality. Language is important, I agree, but context is what gives language the depth it requires.

But there’s no context in which a man can become a woman or vice versa. So, it’s much easier for everyone to underbid you call a man a man and a woman a woman, no?

I know you're very invested in trying to pretend this isn't important Zelda.

But that doesn't mean the rest of us can't see the implications of swapping he for she in this example

Don’t most people in this country only have the reading age of a primary school child? That’s another reason why clear, factual, language is so important.

Today I helped at a class I don't normally. The little girl who went into the boys changing room was NOT being safeguarded.

I am massively unsettled by this and the schools policy. It's now out of step with both the law and Cass.

I'm in a really difficult position over this.

Because tolerating something she isn't comfortable with will be preferable to ending up with no friends.

As a teenager, that is the worst option. As an adult, we cut off people as and when we disagree. School life is nothing like adulthood. And it is seriously traumatic, losing a friendship group. Which is what you're suggesting she risks. Not only could it impact on her mental health, it could affect her academic progress and potentially derail her exam results.

You're pushing your belief system at all costs. Life isn't like that when you're 15.