Abortion decriminalisation - how the far right will use it?

[Movingdream]

I think the parliament made the right decision yesterday to decriminalise abortion. This means women won’t be investigated for late miscarriages and stillbirths, which must just feel like one trauma after another.

The 24 week limit remains in place and you would still only see doctors performing later abortions due to medical issues. As people on here know, the vast majority of abortions take place before 12 weeks and the few that don’t, normally are performed due to a medical issue for mother or baby. After 24 weeks, a woman would have to self induce an abortion for non medical reasons as doctors wouldn’t perform it, which would pretty much be labour, how would a woman even do this?

But ‘the UK has legalised abortion up until birth’ is the soundbite I keep seeing from the fundamentalist right wing types. This isn’t true. It worries me though because they’ll run with it and I’m concerned things swing the other way.

People will run with a vision of women doing horrific DIY abortions, whereas in reality, it just means women can't be arrested for stillbirths, or for taking the abortion pill and getting their dates wrong.

I don’t think the far right will gain much traction on this one. The U.K. doesn’t have a significant evangelical religious community as the US does, and the far right and their supporters don’t tend to be particularly religious or have any monolithic view of abortion, nor is it their main preoccupation and focus. Indeed, the groups which will be least supportive of decriminalisation of abortion or any extended abortion rights are most likely to be at complete opposites in pretty much every other respect to the British far right - e.g. observant Muslims and more traditional immigrant communities from places which are more religious and where women have fewer rights.

There may be fringe mutterings and social media posts, but a real group-think following, unlikely. The vast majority of British people are supportive of abortion, and plenty of people have been unaware that it was previously criminalised except with the mitigation of doctors’ authorisation.

I am actually not convinced that this is a far right issue. I think most people are horrified by the thought of a late term abortion and the government has basically now made it seem like there is no legal distinction between an early abortion of a fetus and and the abortion of a late-term fully formed baby. I think it may make people question the morality of the whole issue to be honest. If the government is really suggesting that aborting a baby of 35 weeks is not a criminal act (however unlikely this scenario actually is) then surely we have to question the whole moral basis. How on earth can it be justified that to abort a late term baby is not a crime but if it was born and then smothered to death, it would be a crime. I think it’s asking people to bend their minds just a bit too far, to be honest.

@Autumn38I completely agree. This makes no logical sense at all. Essentially it is now no longer unlawful to kill pre term, but fully formed and completely viable, babies as long as it's the Mum that does it.

@Autumn38 but no doctors would be performing an abortion at 35 weeks medically, it would need to be self induced? So a woman would be inducing labour at 35 weeks somehow, and then if the baby was born full term and healthy, and you ended its life, you would be a murderer of course? But again, this isn’t even happening? Women are being investigated for stillbirths and miscarriages because it was a criminal offence. It’s far more likely that a woman has suffered a miscarriage than successfully ended a nearly full term pregnancy. It’s horrifying that the police would go through their phone and question them after the trauma of a miscarriage.

Agree with the last two comments. It's a slippery slope.

Misogynists will always find a new stick to beat women with. There are lefty and righty misogynists politically. It doesn’t matter. they all agree on one thing.

Just take a moment to celebrate this success for women who find themselves in a terrible situation, OP, then most importantly keep on campaigning, keep on pushing for more laws to protect UK women in the areas that they need it. Which are multiple.

Because what’s the alternative? We continue to leave women vulnerable legally, because if we don’t the misogynists won’t be happy?

Of course it's not a 'far' right issue. No doubt OP has only shoehorned that in because of Farage's - common sense - recommendation of stopping the cut off at 24 weeks.

Oh yeah @Slothtoes i know, it’s just there’s an immediate emotional response to statements like ‘35 week abortions’, even when they’re not happening (it’s still a 24 week limit).

I'd have thought the far right would love the idea of abortions being available up until birth. It's a form of personal control trumping state control. Individual freedom is a right-wing ideal - it's the left that usually wants wider state control over individual freedom (taxes to spend on universal healthcare, education, things that in theory make society more even).

Unless medically necessary after 24 weeks of course!

@Dangermoo he would keep pushing it earlier and earlier. It would then go to 12 weeks, 8, 6, none.

It’s not about the likelihood of it happening. It’s about the message it sends about the value of the life of a full term baby.

Apparently a baby who was born at 35 weeks and then smothered to death will get the full protection of the law as a human being, but a baby aborted by its mother would not be treated as a human, whose right to life is protected by law. I think most people can see the flaws in that argument. So it isn’t about how likely it is to happen, it’s about the government revealing their attitude towards this issue. I think it will probably actually end up undermining the pro-choice argument. And the far-right won’t have to do anything because I think most people can see for themselves that the logic is totally off.

I haven’t really followed any of the debate or voting but mostly I’ve seen posters strongly believe it should happen, usually more Labour supporters.

I haven't really been following the twists and turns of this so sorry if this is a stupid question, but when are women criminally investigated for stillbirth or miscarriage? I have two friends who had stillbirths sadly and they were certainly not investigated. Is this a real issue?

Agree. Support abortion, had to make that decision alone at 18, around 8 weeks pregnant. I do worry though, that this may harm more women than it helps because, if I understand the new law correctly, an obstetrician will still be prosecuted for performing a late abortion. So, the woman will still have no choice but to attempt it at home, alone.

If this law was to really help women, the threat of prosecution of the clinician should be removed as well. At least then if a woman had to make that awful decision, the procedure would be done in a clinical setting under qualified, medical supervision.

The very rare instances of e.g. smothering a newborn are already almost invariably prosecuted as infanticide rather than murder, with the woman if convicted being ordered to receive psychiatric treatment rather than jailed, in recognition that mothers don’t generally kill their newborn babies except when they are extremely mentally unwell and / or out of desperation. I’ve always been very heartened to see that when cases do make the media, the public comments broadly reflect that understanding already.

Most people are only horrified by the idea of late term abortion because it’s presented differently: they’re fed untruths about the idea that women want late term abortions because they’ve suddenly decided they don’t want the bother of a baby after all / it interferes with their holiday plans or whatever. Greater openness about the profile of the sort of women who might seek a late term abortion or perform one on themselves is what we need, and I think decriminalisation can be the conduit for that by making it a real conversation with and by the medical community and organisations which provide support to women in these sorts of circumstances, and binding it to how we already approach infanticide.

@Autumn38 but of course the vast majority of women value the life of their unborn babies, that’s why this is an incredibly rare occurrence normally brought on by a serious mental health issue. If god forbid a woman had a stillbirth, would you really want them to face court proceedings etc?

I am pro choice but that doesn’t mean I don’t value life. I just know from having miscarriages, how traumatic it would be to wonder if you could perhaps face prosecution or be investigated for a loss. I would be traumatised and bloody terrified. This decision was partly brought to parliament because there was an increase in investigations of women who had miscarried.

How would a woman even self induce an abortion at 35 weeks? Because they certainly can’t get it done at a hospital or clinic.

What is the logic of the wording up to birth? After 24 weeks surely any abortion should be in hospital for a medical reason, and the baby should be cared for if it is healthy and can survive with medical assistance? Any mother acquiring abortion medication for a healthy foetus over 30 weeks should be investigated. If an abortion is necessary it should be in hospital to protect both mother and baby. Not adding in person interviews before being given the abortion pills also leaves the mother open to coercion by family, and could result in selective abortion by sex. I think it’s such a poorly designed Bill that is a sledgehammer to crack a nut. There are lots of ways they could have stopped prosecutions while still protecting mother and foetus. Changing the law on prosecutions for one.

but no doctors would be performing an abortion at 35 weeks medically, it would need to be self induced

its possible because anti abortion pills are given out by telephone. Therefore it’s possible for someone to abort late term by lying or by buying these pills on a black market.
People will say oh no one would do that. But there will be cases. I personally think there’s a risk where people want a certain sex of child, using this approach and now it’s not criminal to do so.

And it will bring pro-life arguments into the mainstream because many many moderate mainstream commentators will feel comfortable saying they don’t support abortion at full term when they wouldn’t feel able to say the same about abortion at 6 weeks. It makes debate much more acceptable to be honest.

I see it as there are a very few women who do this and it's generally because they are vulnerable and in difficult situations for one reason or another. It's not that I think everything is fine, it's that it's not in the public interest, or the interest of the woman to pursue any criminal investigation. And it will mean stillbirths don't risk a police investigation (which I think was pretty rare, but this is still a positive change)

Yes, they are. The head of the Royal College of Obstericians and Gynaecologist was on Newsnight yesterday. He treated Nicola Packer and said that for every woman like her who is actually taken to court, there are 10 who are investigated following late still birth or miscarriage.

The logic is that the pro-choice argument is that it is the woman’s choice at any point in her pregnancy. The human rights of the baby don’t exist until it’s taken its first breath. The government has just encoded the pro-choice argument into law.

He's pro life! ETA - his suggestion was not in the interests of taking away women' rights; it was in the interests of the babies. I meant pro choice, not pro life.