MPs vote to decriminalise abortion

[AirborneElephant]

AIBU to be thrilled! Sorry if there’s already a thread, couldn’t see one.

I’m not sure if you are being deliberately obtuse or not grasping it but abortion is legal under strict guidelines in England

so termination of pregnancy outside of those guidelines is not legal

that hasn’t changed

the woman just wouldn’t face a criminal prosecution - there would still be an investigation and if , say, abortion medication had been used the supplier might face prosecution

Why are you thrilled? Why should we override Parliament's 24 week limit? It wasn't in any party's manifesto. It apparently is designed to help a small number of women, but it is potentially going to impact a larger number of completely viable babies, who can now be legally aborted. Of course no doctor can be involved so it all sounds highly risky. And what happens to the baby/foetus? There has been no debate. I am appalled.

So your interpretation is that anyone purposefully ending their baby’s life during childbirth is no longer classed as an offence.

I feel that this will be controversial to many and not something I agree with overall. We will have to see what the guidance actually says but this could lead to more confusion and backlash.

Nothing is being overridden, the law is unchanged.

Your interpretation seems to be that women are now going to end their pregnancy during labour, again seriously?

Certainly a possibility yes. Women who end their baby’s life soon after they’re born (which does happen, so not just a wild hypothetical situation) can face criminal charges.

This could allow them to do so even a hour or less before birth but guarantee no criminal investigation, regardless of circumstances. Or if that’s not the case, the law might get even more confusing in terms of it only being decriminalised in certain circumstances (eg certain backstreet abortion methods only, only after a certain amount of weeks past 24 but not complete full term).

And all this happened in countries that have already decriminalised abortion?

You must have some data on that.

The point I was making is that this situation isn’t clear cut. No one on here really knows if ending a baby’s life during labour would now be decriminalised, or if the law will need to be made more complex to keep this an offence in some situations.

It is definitely a possibility so would need to be covered under legislation one way or the other.

One law is unchanged - that doctors cannot organise an abortion past 24 weeks unless in exceptional circumstances - but another law IS changed in that by removing the risk of prosecution, women can carry out a diy job at home.

How ridiculous. How dangerous for these highly vulnerable women.

With proper abortion services you get counselling. These women will be popping pills often with no clue what is going to happen next.

It is going to be a disaster.

Do you think that at present the only thing stopping women from attempting to terminate a pregnancy while in labour (and it still remains entirely unclear what that would even involve) is that they might face criminal prosecution for doing so? Do you think this is a genuine risk that is only held at bay by the fact that abortion has been criminalised to date?

Where is your evidence for this? Because if it's just a complete flight of fancy that you've pulled out of your own mind as a 'possibility', then I really don't think it's something we need be giving this much consideration to, and I certainly don't think it's justification for the criminal prosecution of women who have had still births.

for a small minority who kill their babies after birth and face criminal charges, yes doing this during the later stages of labour and knowing there is no possibility of criminal charges could be a deciding factor.

The law would need to be clear if this is an offence or not now.

Unsurprisingly the right wing ministry for misinformation GB News have been talking bollocks about this legistlation.🙄

Killing a baby during the late stages of labour is not an abortion and therefore has nothing to do with this law.

@TooBigForMyBoots

Exactly why there was no need to turn the settled issue of abortion into a culture war battleground.

The first case of a woman man getting a backstreet abortion that causes pain to a baby will send abortion rights backwards.

You just don’t understand it but if procuring a termination before labour is no longer criminalised why on gods earth do you think women would wait until they are in labour!

you seem a tad fixated on some random woman killing her baby in the birth canal but you’ve yet to say how this works!

it’s really a silly straw man argument

if you really want to address the issue work to have abortion on demand with no limit - then no non existent woman will be killing a baby mid birth!

The law would need to be clear if this is an offence or not now

you don’t understand abortion law do you? Where in law does it mention abortion during full term labour? How can it be part of abortion law legal or otherwise when you aren’t talking about abortion!

If that’s the case then surely the decriminalisation will need to specify more details about what methods a woman cant use still, need to ensure they aren’t later found to have been in labour etc or someone could still face charges for something they thought wasn’t the case anymore.

The legistlation makes perfect sense to me and many others. GB not News turn everything into a culture war.🙄

Amazing how they're always ranting about the "authoritarian" government, but think pregnancy loss should be a police matter.🤔

Of ffs I think you just don’t understand but the decriminalisation only refers to abortion - as defined in abortion legislation, conducted outside of that legal framework

you have yet to tell us all how you conduct and abortion during labour

My son was born at 28 weeks. My friends son at 25 weeks. Both are now happy thriving children. They were viable lives.

Aborting below 12 weeks I can understand. Over in the case where a child would have a disability incompatible with any quality of life.

It's not about women's rights, it's about stopping viable babies lives being ended which degies comprehension.

A friend of a friend who I know a little socially has a daughter who had complications at birth and underlying health problems. After 2 months in NICU they opted to turn off her ventilator and let her go as she had such severe brain damage and was kept alive by machines. Except she wasn't. They said goodbye, made their peace and turned the machines off & she breathed in air. The parents were devastated. They didnt want her to survive with such a low quality of life. She's now 10. She had quadriplegic cerebral palsy, no intentional movement, tube fed and is a large vegetable. Her parents were not allowed to end her life at 8 weeks old when she breathed and it would have been far kinder... yet... we ate proposing to allow the ending of life of a potentially viable baby.

It is criminal to end a viable child's life unless for medical reasons. It's not about the Mum over 24 weeks.

I’m very happy for you that your son is thriving, and so is your friend’s son.

But that doesn’t mean you have the right to dictate what other women do with their bodies

Yes your child survived and that’s wonderful but your experience does mean a thing to other women making a choice

i I doubt either child survived without medical intervention- so actually, unless you intervene, premature babies don’t just survive which mean they aren’t ’viable’ without support

You previously said a woman ending her baby’s life during labour would no longer be criminalised due to this change.

Now you’re saying actually if it happened during labour it’s a completely different situation, and therefore isn’t decriminalised after all. It would need to be one or the other.

I can't really make sense of what you've written here.

Abortion is not legal, save in certain exceptions. That hasn't changed. All that has changed is that if a woman does procure an abortion which is not in accordance with these exceptions she won't face criminal prosecution. There aren't 'methods' which are now permissible which previously weren't.

You haven't said what a 'during labour' abortion would even be (because it doesn't exist). It's also completely incomprehensible to suggest that decriminalisation will lead women to seek to abort during labour, but somehow not encourage them to abort during the previous 9 months. Why would anyone wait until labour to terminate an unwanted pregnancy when they wouldn't face criminal prosecution for terminating prior to that?

Oh you are just being deliberately obtuse - I did wonder

do tell us how a fictional woman kills a fictional baby in active labour - that’s one you won’t answer

abortion law is pretty clear - any woman procuring an abortion outside of that law will not face criminal prosecution

as far as I understand killing a fetus in active labour isn’t covered by abortion law ergo decriminalisation doesn’t apply

but it’s not really relevant either

why not discuss abortion rather than fiction?