MPs vote to decriminalise abortion

[AirborneElephant]

AIBU to be thrilled! Sorry if there’s already a thread, couldn’t see one.

Define viable? Born and survived or born and needing a huge amount of medical intervention and support- possibly with life long effects?

babies born at 24 weeks don’t just survive

If we had abortion on demand we’d see much few terminations post 12 weeks

less than 1% or terminations are post 24 weeks and are usually for medical reasons

With an evolutionary lens, it makes more sense to save the adult life than the baby’s, in cases where it’s either/or, because infancy and childhood is by far the hardest part of life to survive to reproductive age. The adult has already made it that far, so it makes more sense to keep the investment already made.

If we’re going to move the discussion towards evolution and prehistory.

Why? It’s up to the woman to decide if she can manage to parent a child with a disability- if that isn’t something she wants she can make that decision

you can refuse any testing if it doesn’t matter to you but testing exists so women can make informed choices

my friends first child had DS undiagnosed in pregnancy and she declined testing in her second pregnancy as it didn’t make a difference to her choice

I have to say, I think there are a lot of people here who don’t fully understand the ramifications of the amendment. This one had support from a wide range of healthcare and medical groups, unlike Stella creasey’s amendment which wanted abortion enshrined as a human right. This amendment makes abortion a healthcare issue rather than a criminal matter, which is as it should be.

My own opinion is that no one else can say what any mother should be able to deal with. If you know that you won’t be able to parent well if you carry a pregnancy to term, you should be able to end the pregnancy. The existing limit won’t be changed, the only difference is that women who do suffer later term spontaneous endings to pregnancy won’t be criminally investigated.

HCPs who knowingly assist an abortion which is illegal will still be liable for prosecution. The protection for the foetus is still there.

They didn’t have a choice. We do.

Then why no let the decision wait for the baby to be born when a full assessment can be made then decide within a few weeks if she wants to keep it. It's not like the baby's brain suddenly turns on at birth - makes little different to the baby if it is terminated pre/post birth.

It’s up to the woman to decide if she can manage to parent a child with a disability- if that isn’t something she wants she can make that decision

That is a pretty grim statement - I know why you are saying it, but it doesn't change the fact that it is morally bankrupt

But they couldn’t survive on their own at 25 weeks.

more like 34+. Even then they need some support.

It's not a great justification though is it?

It is pretty dysfunctional to put yourself above a child - there are obvious circumstances in nature when parents have to sacrifice children, but it is extreme and rare. Birds sit for days on end incubating eggs and will go hungry or draw predators toward themselves to protect their eggs...the eggs are the equivalent of the foetus in this scenario.

I can't help but go back to narcissism when people say "Women come first, always"

You don’t have to morally agree with a decision to think it should not be a crime. If you are standing outside a burning building and there is a baby in the doorway within easy reach at no risk to you, and you stand there and do nothing and the baby dies then I would morally judge you as reprehensible. But legally, you are not committing a crime. Because we do not compel people to act to save others. And I agree with the legal position, even though I would not make the same choice.

It isn’t a justification, those are simple facts.

I will put myself above a foetus every single time, because my existing children are more important than a hypothetical one.

Your morals are your own, you are welcome to them. Nobody else has to live by them.

Not morally bankrupt at all - it’s considering the needs of the woman, her circumstances and possibly her existing children - forcing any woman to give birth against her wishes is morally bankrupt

There is a test of morals from Kant:

"What if everyone did this?"
If the action you are describing was done by everyone, would the world still function ethically or sensibly? If not, the action is morally wrong.

If every woman put themselves before a foetus, I am not sure it would be a functional or ethical society. It only functions currently because a lot of women put their foetus above themselves.

it isn't comparable, there are birds that will eat their own young (like the night jar as proven by being filmed on Spring Watch this year) and others who will abandon or kill or eat their own babies if it becomes too much to raise them, or just reabsorb pregnancies like Rabbits.

Your morals are your own, you are welcome to them. Nobody else has to live by them

yes this! My ‘morals’ will always place the needs of the woman above those of a fetus

but I’m 100% pro choice

Also odd that you find caring about the needs of women and girls and putting them first in decisions about their bodies as narcissism

What is this idea of 'forcing any woman to give birth against her wishes'?

'Wishes'?

That word feels… flimsy. Casual. Like this is a matter of preference, like ordering tea instead of coffee. But we're talking about life — creating it, sustaining it, being responsible for it, and yes, ending it. That is not a 'wish' — that’s the most serious terrain we have.

You can’t build a society on wishes.

Needs then it’s all semantics- if a woman doesn’t want to be pregnant she shouldn’t have to be - anything else is forcing pregnancy on her

Narcissism involves an inflated sense of self-importance (“I matter more than you”)

So....yeah, narcissism

When does life begin then? The moment of conception? Six weeks? 12? 24?

the woman is alive at all these stages - at what point is her life worth less?

Want? Is that any better?

What responsibility do you think a woman does have to a foetus? Is it none?

Fine I’m happy to be considered narcissistic for wanting women to have a choice

What responsibility do you think a woman does have to a foetus? Is it none

yup

You've changed what you said though - you are now saying 'choice' when what we have been talking about is that you think women are worth more than the foetus. That's different