Do you trust the state to protect and provide for you?

[TFloss]

Read a Times article on 12th June - ‘Middle-class vigilantes are turning against the state’. It talks about a growing trend of middle-class Brits taking matters into their own hands due to perceived failures of the state, particularly around police and public services creating a shift toward self-reliance, driven not by ideology but by necessity.

Doing own police work to solve crimes, private healthcare, private education, private security/community networks to prevent crime, more use of private transport, use of private mental health services, private carers, private bin collections.

Is this unreasonable or are you seeing this? Are people feeling like they have no choice but to step in where the state has stepped back?

Whether they can afford to or not is almost irrelevant. Squeeze too hard and people don't bother working as hard or earning as much. It's counterproductive. The childcare cliff edge is a good example.

Hate to have to say it but no one from Cork ever went to the UK as a refugee. An economic migrant, yes, but refugee status is totally different.

And everyone receives something from the state - it's not just benefits, it's subsidised public services/ transport/ education systems for children/ subsidised food provision (farmers grant funding)/ NHS etc. Even if you pay for services if they are government owned they are generally still highly subsidised

Ah okay - a friend of mine just flew out to Romania today actually but not sure where.

Yes big alcohol and drug problem in Glasgow and sometimes the drug addicts can be quite intimidating.

I don’t think I’ve heard about that, is that similar to the vans/mobile rooms designed to provide a “safe space” for people to take drugs?

I appreciate that actually.

If you read my earlier posts, you will.see we have used minimal state services. The point has already been made. Ultimately we will take out far less than we ever put in and apart from taking responsibility for our own lives, state standards were not acceptable in our opinion.

The best state provision afaiac is policing. Whenever we have had to deal with the police they have been impeccably polite and very helpful.

The best state provision afaiac is policing. Whenever we have had to deal with the police they have been impeccably polite and very helpful.

Polite yes, helpful no. When our car had £££££ of damage caused by a hit and run driver all we got was a crime number to enable us to claim on the insurance. Very polite and completely useless.

I agree. The 'return' for the people providing the services that need to be topped up is shit too. And we're also told we're the problem, while delivering the people doing the blaming, the services they rely on without a second thought.

People complaining that they get nothing in return after dropping their kids off at a nursery where they're not paying enough that the workers doing the caring get a wage they don't need benefits to survive.
Or visiting their elderly relative in a home.
Or been shopping.
Or out for a coffee or a meal.

Maybe people need to be paying enough for these services that top ups aren't needed? Maybe instead of relying on the state to cover the shortfall, or demanding that the jobs are done for less than someone can survive on, and so being subsidised by someone else's work to their benefit, people should just be paying more for those services they're using?

By "Childcare cliff edge", do you mean the gap that opens up for people earning between £100K-£150K? The median household income in the UK is around £37K (source: ONS). So, if you have an income over £100K, then you are very wealthy indeed.

Your perception of wealthy doesn't make it good fiscal policy.

I don't know how old you are, but I remember when industries were largely nationalised, in the 60s and 70s. I remember the strikes, the waste, the inefficiencies, the filthy trains under old British Rail. I remember in 1981 when I bought my first flat, having to wait 12 weeks for a telephone to be installed. The social/nationalised model simply didn't work as well in the UK as it did across Europe. Regrettably, Brits don't really like working or providing high levels of customer service. The NHS is a glowing example of our complete and utter failure to provide high quality, reliable, centralised services.

I'm afraid past performance is the best indicator of future performance. A model of state ownership in the UK didn't work last time and I doubt it will work next time.

My only caveat is that water shoukd never have been privatised and British Rail needed operators with a bigger state owned infrastructure.

Britain has never been able to provide overarching support across whole industries because that is not how Brits are wired. As Napoleon said, we are a nation of shopkeepers and when the Brits didn't evolve as shopkeepers to provide the extended hours 20th Century living required, the Asians stepped in. Why should the Brits even bother if there was no need to live above the shop and their open hands were fed with gold in the shape of benefits.

Absolutely not.

Private education, private healthcare, private childcare, 24:7 security in central London apartment complex. The list goes on.

I'm taxed to the hilt and use none of the benefits.

Before someone says "roads!" etc., that's my council tax.

Only local roads. All A roads and motorways are paid for through general taxation.

I trust that I will get a basic level of care and pension.

If I want more than basic then it's down to me to sort out and tailor additional private support to meet my specific needs and wants.

The state can't support every citizen to a high standard unfortunately. Not unless our taxes now are phenomenal AND we have very draconian rules around the who's and why's of qualification. Neither of which is very popular - one is consider very left wing and one is considered very right wing.

You don't use shops then? Or hospitality? Or petrol stations for your car, or public transport? The childcare workers that look after your child, you know absolutely none of them need top ups because you pay enough that they don't? The receptionist at your private GP, utterly sure they earn enough not to need UC because of what you pay? The security company you use charge you enough to pay enough in wages so that the staff don't need social housing or benefits?

As you say the list goes on of the services you use that are supported by the tax you pay so those people delivering that service aren't living under a bridge somewhere and available and to a standard to actually deliver those services.

Because a great many people providing you those services will be needing some sort of support, which means actually you are benefitting from what you're paying. They're working to the 'hilt' to provide those services for less than they can live on.

Amazed at the number of people claiming that because the send their children to private schools and have health insurance they get "nothing from the state"

I grew up in the 70s. I actually agree with most of what you're saying here. There was (and still is) a shocking lack of accountability and poor productivity in the public sector, particularly the NHS. I'd also agree that the RMT/ASLEF and other large unions are still living in the 19th century. So I think we do need to match European levels of taxation, I think, but we absolutely need to sort out the very poor productivity and eye-watering sickness and absence in the NHS too.

The ‘state’ is basically other people. The same people who are actually now paying twice. Once for everyone else and then again for themselves.

There is a growing number of people who are taking more and more while the ever shrinking number of providers actually contribute more and more.

No.

No.

I was suicidal and the NHS thought waiting 8 months for talking therapy was acceptable.

I am so terrified of the NHS I now have 2 separate private health insurances. Private dental too.

I pay into a private pension and intend up live on that when I retire. I don’t expect state pension to exist - or I expect it to be means tested.

I get a 25% council tax reduction as a single person. 🙄thanks.

I’m likely to be a higher rate tax payer in the not too distance future too.

The UK is a disgrace and if I had the transferable skills I would leave. An ex colleague has left for Saudi but I don’t think I could bring myself to do that.

The median household income is around £37K. Anyone earning £100K plus is in the top 20-25% of income. That's not my 'perception', this group are wealthy compared to most (source: IFS).

So, yes, if you can afford an SUV, smartphone, one or two nice holidays a year, media subscriptions, etc., then you do have a decent level of disposable income, and spending power is a sign of wealth.

I am sure you realise that good fiscal policy means making political as well as economic choices: you either tax more, borrow more, or spend less, while all the time trying to grow an efficient economy.

So, as an expert in 'fiscal policy', what do you suggest?

I think the present government are needlessly scared of taxing wealthy middle classes, particularly those working in the public sector who are unlikely to signal their support for a right-wing party.

Nope! In 21 years we've had the same pothole, never had the road swept ever (I do it), town is maintained by volunteers and having had to work side by side with local/ county councils, they are verging on the dire and love a good talk, but as for action they are definitely Teflon coated!

💯 % NO!

Absolutely not. The "state" was concieved to administer to affairs of state on OUR behalf, it was supposed to work for US, but somehow, a situation has become normalised where we work for THEM.

This is a gross perversion of the idea of government.

Look at the announcement this week from the Labout Party about the introduction of the "Britcard". This will be a MANDATORY digital I.D that will likk to your "Digital Wallet" and give the authorities complete oversight into each citizens life. Your bank accounts, medical records, drivers licence, passport, phone numbers, email addresses, online activity, biometrics, location and home addresses. All available to the state in a single digital file. It will be accessible to all agencies, from HMRC to MI5 to the Police. This isn't some conspiracy theory, this is literally, actually happening.

Imagine a government as incompetent and corrupt as ours with that much power over each of us. It's terrifying.

@chiseltip can you link to your source please?

I didn't claim to be an expert. But there is evidence that the childcare cliff edge has been counterproductive. You don't have to like it, but insisting that people are rich and should pay more tax doesn't mean they will. We need to boost productivity and discouraging people from doing well does the opposite.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/64f707cf512076037f612f60/t/6841899eee8b0741ea8756a7/1749125534854/Final_BritCard_Labour+Together.pdf

Aah, it's a proposal with as many steps yet to go through as the Euthanasia bill.

For which part?

For the "Britcard" just Google it, there are hundreds of online posts and articles, even from .gov.uk that explain it. If you go to The Labour Party official website, there is an article there on it. The Guardian did a story on it five days ago, but it's behind a pay wall so I won't link that.

For the digital wallet, same, just Google it. There is an explanation on .gov.uk about it also.

These things are real. The digital wallet has already been rolled out.