Do you trust the state to protect and provide for you?

[TFloss]

Read a Times article on 12th June - ‘Middle-class vigilantes are turning against the state’. It talks about a growing trend of middle-class Brits taking matters into their own hands due to perceived failures of the state, particularly around police and public services creating a shift toward self-reliance, driven not by ideology but by necessity.

Doing own police work to solve crimes, private healthcare, private education, private security/community networks to prevent crime, more use of private transport, use of private mental health services, private carers, private bin collections.

Is this unreasonable or are you seeing this? Are people feeling like they have no choice but to step in where the state has stepped back?

Sorry but you are an idiot if you think the state the country is in is the fault of individuals. It’s the fault of successive shit populist governments (Along with some global crises in the mix). No one actually seems to want to step up and have real political vision and want to be doing right for the country rather than serving themselves and/or their mates. The current lot I had hope for but seem to more of the same.

Its also the fault of the super rich who are.getting richer and richer while we are all getting poorer - they are literally leaching off us and no government seems to want to do anything about that either.

And “the people” seem to be turning to blaming each other for the issues and/or turning to Reform in response. Rather than trying to hold the government to account/demand change. The government are encouraging this by successive attacks on the poor and vulnerable. It’s depressing and predictable (based on history). This is what humans do despite said history telling them it lead to fucking disaster. Humans are idiots.

Is it necessity, or do people make that choice because their expectations are too high? Because they want something extra. There has to be a balance

My ds is privately educated although I am a single mum and it's been a huge stretch. The state alternative was unsafe according to Ofsted, and I wasn't prepared to risk it.. So yes, I felt compelled to find an alternative.

But I'm pretty self sufficient. I expect the bare minimum from the state.

I've always found the NHS to be brilliant when I've actually needed them (three times in 60 years). And the police on the only occasion I've needed them. I've never needed help with housing or finding a job. I don't put myself in vulnerable positions. I do everything myself, cook from scratch, raise ds without assistance, run my budget, keep us healthy and safe, I'm still running, swimming, cycling etc. I've saved into a private pension since I was 21. DS has just got his first job at 16. I'll help him into university or an apprenticeship. Try to make him as independent as possible too.

I volunteer for the parish council and for the village residents assoc. Try to ensure others are properly provided for and make our community feel safe. That's not new though. Communities have always managed their own affairs to some extent. Most towns and villages have churches and charities that have existed for generations. I'm running Race for Life today which will generate another £500 for Cancer Research. 100 years ago it would have been a jumble sale to support the local cottage hospital.

Perhaps what has changed is we expect too much. If you drink to excess, fall down and hurt yourself, should you expect the NHS to patch you up? If you smoke dope and then have mental health problems, should you expect the NHS to provide treatment? If you gamble and end up homeless should you expect emergency housing? Where do we draw the line, because funding is and always will be finite?

Eh? I'm sure the state will be delighted not to offer you a place in a care home, and just leave you to struggle and fail in old age, if that is what you want.

It works as a deterrent mainly. We were broken into 6 times over less than a year once in addition to our diesel tanks being regularly. Since we’ve had patrols there has been one attempt. The patrol car was driving round and caught sight of them - they managed to esparce across fields on foot but it was creepy watching them be chased round the buildings by the security.

Its also safety as well if I’m ever by myself on the farm I feel far safer knowing these guys are less than 20mins away if there is someone creeping round the farm.

Im not entirely sure what their powers are. I’ve got a vague recollection they can apprehend people until the police arrive. They do seem more hardcore than your average supermarket driver to be fair. They are normally ex military and often have a dog unit as well.

No we don’t rely on the state. We use state services but don’t rely on them. We use private nursery, state school but have back up of going private if needed. A mix of state and private healthcare and dentist and would go fully private if needed. Saving to make sure we don’t need to rely on the state in retirement, and saving for DCs so they get a good start into adulthood.

I think you all depend on the state more than you think you do.
You walk and drive over roads that the state maintains
You revieve private health care from Drs trained by the NHS. And private security by guys trained by the army.
Your private child care workers are dependent on top ups from Universal Credit.
And so are the people who serve you in supermarkets.
You would probably struggle to afford a lot of things if you, the consumer, were paying the full price if the labour involved in providing it.
Independence is an illusion.

Well, because we pay £10s of thousands of tax every year, and the social contract is meant to be that this is used to provide state services for all of us to enjoy.

Sure, we agree that people contribute according to their means. But we're meant to actually get something from it. And I don't mean just the warm glow of being virtuous.

If the state won't provide me with any shared services - or any genuine safety net for my own time of need - then why should I pay taxes?

It seems these days that many of us pay vast amounts of tax to support those less fortunate than ourselves. We don’t actually benefit personally from our taxes as we also have to then pay for services we use privately. It’s hard not to feel a little resentful.

I live in a very poor area. Our local hub (charity led) has an army of volunteers (some people have paid jobs in other roles, some are kids, some are disabled) who look after the community, report gaps in services, fundraise for the area, run support groups, help families in need, sign post to other services, bridge the gap between parents and schools etc which all work very well and thrive because we can't depend on the government.

I said on another thread (about shoplifting) that this would happen: people taking the law into their own hands, if the government keeps defunding the police so they can’t do anything. We’ve seen it with the group “letzgohunting”.

And did someone mention Reform? Yes, people will vote for them if nothing is seen to change. Even though Farage is a much bigger criminal than the ones people are pissed off about, even though he is promising the miracles and the moon on a stick with no actual plan, and even though he and his men probably don’t even want to be in government: they are enjoying causing mayhem from the sidelines.

I feel the need to post against the grain here.

I live in rural Scotland. The area is very mixed, but certainly not well to do.

I can speak to a GP whenever I need to (same day but no pre-booked appointments). My kids had an incredible council nursery and are now in an equally amazing primary school (although it is absolutely tiny). Our bins are collected when they are supposed to be. The odd back road will be terrible for a period but in general the roads are reasonable. I have never had to deal with the police (which perhaps in Itself says something about crime statistics here).

We are lucky, we don't have any chronic conditions or MH issues - so I'm sure there are problems that we aren't exposed to. But I am equally sure that a lot of the pressure on those services is down to the entitlement and ridiculous expectations of people and not the government.

So many people have worked out how to milk the system or expect the state to step in at every eventuality and then wonder why it struggles.

Our GP is brilliant, but I still had someone have a massive rant because "why should I have to phone at a certain time of day, don't they know how busy I am". The entitled so and so has no idea how lucky she is, did not have a job that meant the system didn't work for her (though appreciate that for some it wouldn't) and just thinks the world should revolve around her.

I know someone who had an unplanned pregnancy (not her first) and then was outraged that she wouldn't be entitled to benefits because her partner worked... You are supposed to save for maternity leave, not be bailed out! That same person couldn't believe that they didn't tell her how to look after a baby at the hospital. READ A BLOODY BOOK! (Wasn't even her first baby and she was nearly bloody 40).

Her eldest daughter has been on benefits since she was 18 for "mental health". It is not mental health, she is lazy and entitled and needs to get a bloody job!

I think we've had years and years of an incompetent and corrupt government but I also think that people are a HUGE part of the problem!

I think we've had years and years of an incompetent and corrupt government but I also think that people are a HUGE part of the problem!

@Muststopeating I agree with this. Both things are a problem. Our tax money is getting wasted on these private contracts for their chums, and there was the mismanagement in issuing government loans in the pandemic and all the rest. As well as some people taking the piss in terms of never paying into the system. Obviously some can’t due to disability but I’m talking about the ones who can but choose only to take.

My friends abusive ex signed on unemployment and then disability the day she left him (15 years ago) so he wouldn’t need to pay child maintenance. He spends his days at weatherspoons with his (also unemployed) girlfriend and going on city breaks.

Of course not. As a member of the Vietnam generation (aka "a boomer") the idea of trusting the State is preposterous.

The man is not your friend.

Again, think of Scandi model - much higher wages for people in work, higher taxes at the lower end (because then lower end is paid sufficiently to afford it). This results in higher prices across the board but people can chose how to spend their money. And everyone is entitled to the same high quality state services.

In our case society is becoming more and more separated into those who give up (or never bothered in first place) and fully depend on state and get most of support, even if far from perfect, and then shrinking group who funds everything but receive very little in return. Increasingly the latter are choosing to emigrate.

Isn't being over-reliant on the state the reason behind problems in modern society? As far as possible, it is my job to protect and provide for myself. Just expecting the state to "sort it" is failing to take personal responsibility.

"In our case society is becoming more and more separated into those who give up (or never bothered in first place) and fully depend on state and get most of support, even if far from perfect, and then shrinking group who funds everything but receive very little in return. Increasingly the latter are choosing to emigrate."

I do agree with you that the Skandi model is best. However, I would still disagree with your characterisation of our society.

If you travel somewhere with a genuinely weak state infrastructure, you notice it immediately. The roads might be very poor or non existent. Rubbish might not be collected. People you see on the street may be noticeably poor. There could be a lot of beggars. Or it might feel unsafe to walk around. Police or other officials may expect a bribe just to leave you alone, never mind to help out in an emergency.
You can't tell me that people don't benefit from the UK not being like that. That's the state doing something for you.

I also think its misleading to think about a large group of people who have "given up" or "fully depend on the state". You are mostly talking about low waged workers here. Receiving Universal Credit for childcare and rent.
And often feeling self conscious about it- because they've bought into the lie that any human being can (or should) survive without the help of wider society.

The truth is that richer people benefit as well- because employers are not paying the full cost of our labour and the savings are getting passed on in cheaper goods and services.

Imagine (in a more skandi model perhaps) if everyone who currently receives universal credit for rent and childcare- instead paid £300 a month for council housing and £250 for subsidised childcare.

Instead of feeling awkward about getting benefits, we'd all be patting ourselves on the back about what independent and hard working people we are. And it would be as big a load of bullshit as when richer people come out with those kind of sentiments now.

I think it’s problematic that some people working full time need universal credit. We have a problem with wage stagnation across the board from low to middle earners, and UC shouldn’t be propping up these businesses. It would be better if people could afford to work and pay affordable rent themselves, without having to play silly games like limiting their hours at work so they don’t lose benefits etc.

I understand why people do it if they’re better off not working full time tbh, but it is a problem with the system.

And there are of course the people who just opt not to work at all, they do exist and as someone who grew up in a working class neighbourhood of west coast Scotland I know many of them. And in some cases their parents didn’t work either. So it’s a generational thing.

If you travel somewhere with a genuinely weak state infrastructure, you notice it immediately. The roads might be very poor or non existent. Rubbish might not be collected. People you see on the street may be noticeably poor. There could be a lot of beggars. Or it might feel unsafe to walk around. Police or other officials may expect a bribe just to leave you alone, never mind to help out in an emergency.
You can't tell me that people don't benefit from the UK not being like that. That's the state doing something for you

I genuinely thought you were referring to places in the UK with this description the first time I read it until I got to the police bribery bit 😂 Some areas do match most of this picture tbh especially over the last 15 years. Potholes everywhere, increasing amount of homeless on streets, lack of rubbish collection.

You get what you pay for, folks.

It's been a political race to the bottom, promising no tax rises, and so voters only have themselves to blame. If you looked to Europe (yes, Brexiters, I know that's hard for you ) you'll see that taxes are higher and services are generally better.

I just wish we had someone in power who had the guts to say that they were going to raise taxes, explain exactly what and when improvements will be expected, and (this is the important bit) ensure that the NHS in particular doesn't t frit this money away.

But then you wouldn't vote for them, would you?

The UK is significantly more expensive to live compared to the average in the EU (50%). A lot of families can’t afford the cost of basics as it is and tax increases would make life unaffordable for many. Yes, tax the super rich, but governments never seem to want to do that do they. Wonder why? 🤔

"I genuinely thought you were referring to places in the UK with this description the first time I read it until I got to the police bribery bit 😂 Some areas do match most of this picture tbh especially over the last 15 years. Potholes everywhere, increasing amount of homeless on streets, lack of rubbish collection."

I agree that things are declining. But honestly, in Albania, I saw guys walking around with massive open sores on their arms and legs. Because they were taking heroin by cutting open their skin and rubbing the drugs into the open wound.

I mean....maybe it doesn't seem like much but at least our junkies have access to needles.

These things fall on a spectrum I guess.

That sounds awful 😣just curious - can I ask what part of Albania that was?

I remember seeing a drug addict man in Glasgow walk up and down the high street with a needle sticking out his cheek and that was horrible enough to witness.

And yes you’re right they do fall on a spectrum.

No, but why would I? It's not the state's job, it's my responsibility. Who said the state would protect and provide?

I don’t mind paying quite a lot of tax but I don’t think public services are very effective at the moment. Things may have improved at population level eg. we’ve gone up the PISA tables in education and we’ve scrapped children’s centres because they “weren’t efficient”. But to what consequence? The way services are funded and run is at the expense of individual experience and vulnerable people are often shabbily treated by public services. It’s bad for everyone.

My children are privately educated as the experience at local state schools was awful. They have thrived in private school. Never the plan as we’re both state school educated but am not sacrificing my children for ideology.

I’m not impressed with my elderly parents experience in the NHS - there have been some nice and really committed individuals but also unacceptable wait times. If I could afford to pay for their health care routinely I would.

The social contract has really degraded and politics is so divisive. You can see from this thread that the centre cannot hold so the world is drifting off to extremes.

Reform and the Tories are pretending the problem is poor immigrant communities. Labour’s no better pandering to the same rhetoric as well as conflating a families earning £120k with billionaires. We’re in a big fucking mess.

Yes, you are quite correct that there are people living in real poverty, i.e. less than half the medium income level.

But the quickest glance across a typical MN page will show you that there are plenty of middle-earning families and couples who believe they are 'squeezed' but, in truth, are not.

Yes, hit the very high earners if it makes you feel better - but, be careful what you wish for, it won't generate the income that you believe it would once they pull their investments out of the UK.

But, I'm sorry, it's the higher middle earners who need to pay more tax. If you can afford an SUV, or a foreign holiday, a smartphone, and a Prime subscription, you can afford to pay more tax.

Also, do remember that a majority of luxury goods (above) that the 'squeezed' middle classes gorge themselves on are made outside the UK, bring little into the UK, and are made by those who are poorer.

Anyone who feels hard-done-by should try this:

https://ifs.org.uk/tools_and_resources/where_do_you_fit_in

"That sounds awful 😣just curious - can I ask what part of Albania that was?"

Sorry, now I think about it properly it was Arad. Which is Romania not Albania. It was before they joined the EU so I wonder if things have improved now.

Glasgow is very bad for drugs. Have you been following the drug consumption room debacle?