Great article in the Guardian about wokeism

[inkognitha]

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2025/jun/10/how-does-woke-start-winning-again

Good morning everyone.
Today, even the Guardian admits woke isn’t working.

« Yet Progressive Activists’ fatal flaw, the report argues, is that they’re further from mainstream public opinion on cultural issues than they realise. They’re the only group where a majority thinks that immigration should be as high or higher than it is now, and that protecting people from hate speech matters more than defending free speech (a key rationale behind “no debate” – the idea that trans identities aren’t up for discussion – and “no platforming”). They’re also the group most likely to think social change sometimes requires breaking the law, whereas two-thirds of Britons disapprove of protesters blocking roads or gluing themselves to things.
Tryl stresses that being outliers doesn’t invariably make Progressive Activists wrong – perhaps they’re just ahead of the curve, as the suffragettes once were – but it has important tactical implications. His polling shows that Progressive Activists overestimate by a factor of two to three how much others agree with their core beliefs, from abolishing the monarchy to letting children change gender. Consequently they tend to invest too little time on persuasion, focusing instead on mobilising the masses they wrongly imagine are on board. “If you’re reaching out to people, then you’re watering down,” is how Tryl describes this mindset.
While successful campaigns usually build the broadest base possible, Progressive Activists also tend to be purists, rejecting supporters who don’t endorse a complete worldview. (More than a quarter wouldn’t campaign alongside someone who believes – as a majority of Britons do – in Israel’s right to exist, for example.) Their yearning for grand systemic change means they can sound dismissive of other people’s small but well-meaning efforts, and they’re also unusually keen on correcting other people’s “mistakes” on diversity issues, something other groups consider likely to cause embarrassment. »

I hope some of the keyboard warriors/bullies roaming this board and the blue-haired, nose-pierced authoritarians will have a read, and at last, a think on how they do more harm than good.

You are literally proving the point spectacularly here. Anyone who doesn’t agree with your extreme view is ‘transphobic’
They really aren’t.

Christ, it’s like we’ve got a vocal few on the far left shouting and screaming, a vocal few on the far right shouting and screaming, and those of us sitting in the middle somewhere are just sick of it.

We cannot even debate it with you if you hold a completely different definition of the word transphobia to the majority of the population. We can’t even agree on what words mean so it becomes a pointless argument.

When people use "looks like", it is to clearly signal subjectivity.
WTH are you on about with "looking at facts", dear?

I'm not worried about my own relationship with facts, basic reading comprehension or inconvenient truths, but I can't say that for everyone on this thread.

Have a deep breath and a great day

Yes, that’s a good point.

OP - claims a decent human being doesn't "belittle, patronise or bully opponents and listen with an open mind"

Also OP - anyone who disagrees is a blue-haired, nose-pierced authoritarian and performative, tantrum throwing, keyboard warrior.

You couldn't make it up ,😂,but as they say the hypocrisy of the right knows no bounds!

By the way OP, if that's your definition of what makes a decent human then I fear you're gonna be in for a helluva shock when you find out what the right have been up to lately 😬

Exactly. You said Reform LOOKS more sensible. Which is an expressed opinion. And a perfectly valid one. You didn’t state it as a fact.

And the rebuttal was hearsay and telling you to ‘look at facts’ and ‘get out of your echo chamber’

It’s impossible to have a sensible discussion with these people.

One of the things that alleged 'woke' is getting wrong is its argument that it is 'transphobic' that females should have sex-based rights in order to be able to fully participate in what is still a patriarchal society.
I have yet to see an argument as to why it makes me a right wing bigot to say that males should not be able to use females' sex-based rights.
I wouldn't even mind if my position was termed 'male-phobic', even though I don't suffer from phobias and know that it is intended as a bit of a slur; at least it would be more correct in the sense that yes, I want females to maintain their sex-based societal protections. But apparently it is progressive to call people like me a 'transphobe' and usually also assume that because I'm a 'transphobe' I am 'aligned' with the 'far right'.
In the 80s I'd have been called a 'Loony Leftie' or a 'dungaree-wearing lesbian'. I wasnt either of those things either but I just can't seem to find a political position that patriarchal capitalism finds acceptable 😂

@Lostcat

You hold certain beliefs which you think are “factual”- actually they are the product of a set of narrow and partial assumptions.

I'm curious whether you think this description applies to you.

(I think that's a fair description of all of humanity. That's why recognising the rights of others to advance positions one disagrees with is so important, and why bearing in mind that they might be right is so valuable. Would you agree?).

It’s so tiring. Especially because there could be so much constructive debate to reach a consensus if it wasn’t shut down so vehemently.

I could sit down and talk respectfully about politics with someone who believes being woke is a good thing and if they engaged in good faith, we may learn something from one another. We may even agree on certain topics. I did one of those political quizzes prior to the last GE where you answer questions about your views on a range of topics and it tells you who to vote for. Mine came out an equal three-way split between Greens, Lib Dem’s and Reform (where do you even go with that?)
But my point is, it isn’t necessarily the political views that are the problem. It’s the way they are presented.

I'm not surprised you don't understand the concept of facts. Facts are important dear. I also wish you the best of days.

Lead the way. I've yet to see anything sensible but remain in hope.

Why do his minions keep saying that?

Lead the way with what exactly?

Did they start by defining “wokeism”?

@WhereIsMyJumper This is so true. And I also came out of that quiz a very weird mix - I think Green, Labour and Reform!

It certainly was a failure to engage with the substance of what I wrote , which (the substance) I clarified in my second post. Would you like to engage in the substance of that at all?

Here we go again, referring to people who say anything remotely positive about Reform as ‘Farage’s minions’

Maybe they think Reform is the least worst option? Perfectly valid opinion to hold.

This whole thread is DARVO in action.

In what sense?

Engage with your later post? Not at this point, no.

Partly as I need to go out, but mainly because if you are capable of writing your views out in a way that is pretty much 180' the opposite of what you later claim you meant, I fear it's going to be one of those exchanges I later regret devoting too much time to! Thank you though.

Sorry, I assumed you understood what you wrote.

It’s impossible to have a sensible discussion with these people.

Start a sensible discussion. Lead the way.

You were so excited to respond you missed the context. Why do Reform supporters keep telling other people that they're responsible for Reform's support?

I can't remember but I'm not sure that's important. I think it's very important to tell the 'woke' how very silly they are and how very sensible the hard right are.

Do you consider your understanding of politics to be more complex than "woke" or "the hard right"? If yes, why are you trying to shoehorn people into just those two buckets?

Plenty of reasons from all sorts of political perspectives (including progressive ones) to rue the sort of things the Guardian article highlights.

For a start, there's a large middle ground of people who dislike significant parts of "woke" left and of the "hard right" for the same reason. The authoritarianism.

I'd say that describes most of the MN posters who dislike "woke". it's not because they think the hard right is great. Many of them don't think any right is great. They are squarely left-wing, but liberal left not authoritarian left.

I'm not trying to shoehorn anyone into anything, I'm summarising the jist of the thread.

It's a small fraction of this thread that has been saying "how very sensible the hard right is", which is why it feels like a shoehorn to summarise the gist of the thread in that binary manner.