Great article in the Guardian about wokeism

[inkognitha]

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2025/jun/10/how-does-woke-start-winning-again

Good morning everyone.
Today, even the Guardian admits woke isn’t working.

« Yet Progressive Activists’ fatal flaw, the report argues, is that they’re further from mainstream public opinion on cultural issues than they realise. They’re the only group where a majority thinks that immigration should be as high or higher than it is now, and that protecting people from hate speech matters more than defending free speech (a key rationale behind “no debate” – the idea that trans identities aren’t up for discussion – and “no platforming”). They’re also the group most likely to think social change sometimes requires breaking the law, whereas two-thirds of Britons disapprove of protesters blocking roads or gluing themselves to things.
Tryl stresses that being outliers doesn’t invariably make Progressive Activists wrong – perhaps they’re just ahead of the curve, as the suffragettes once were – but it has important tactical implications. His polling shows that Progressive Activists overestimate by a factor of two to three how much others agree with their core beliefs, from abolishing the monarchy to letting children change gender. Consequently they tend to invest too little time on persuasion, focusing instead on mobilising the masses they wrongly imagine are on board. “If you’re reaching out to people, then you’re watering down,” is how Tryl describes this mindset.
While successful campaigns usually build the broadest base possible, Progressive Activists also tend to be purists, rejecting supporters who don’t endorse a complete worldview. (More than a quarter wouldn’t campaign alongside someone who believes – as a majority of Britons do – in Israel’s right to exist, for example.) Their yearning for grand systemic change means they can sound dismissive of other people’s small but well-meaning efforts, and they’re also unusually keen on correcting other people’s “mistakes” on diversity issues, something other groups consider likely to cause embarrassment. »

I hope some of the keyboard warriors/bullies roaming this board and the blue-haired, nose-pierced authoritarians will have a read, and at last, a think on how they do more harm than good.

We had a sweet spot, and then they fucked it up so much that we will end up going backwards.
Yes, but the problem is that if you look at who's behind Reform and the script that they are following, we'll not only 'go' backwards, we'll be speeding down the motorway in reverse at 200mph.

👏 👏

The narrative that woke ultimately ate itself, becoming so shrill, sanctimonious and yet simultaneously brittle that a backlash was almost inevitable

Yes this!

Woke should be a good thing, standing up for those less fortunate and campaigning for good. But like most things it went too far and has now imo caused more harm than good as people push back the other way.

Woke started down a path of championing the underdog but not by raising them up but by putting others down. Inclusion became exclusion.

You start telling people their culture doesn’t matter or that they are the cause of all society’s ills and you get push back and at it’s extreme you get Andrew Tate, you get Far Right etc etc.

I personally see the term woke now as a negative and that is only the fault of those who didn’t include but excluded.

edited as typos

I don’t necessarily disagree although I can’t claim
to know much about how dangerous it would be if reform got in. I try to base my political opinions on logic and rationality rather than emotion. Next general election, I will try read the main parties policies and vote that way.

But the point you make is a good one as it’s happening in the US and all over Europe. We used to have a cultural pendulum, it would swing one side, then back the other as each generation sought to rebel against the generation before. But in reality, the pendulum swing from left of centre wit right of centre and back again. It was palatable for most people.

That pendulum has now become a wrecking ball. It smashed either side. Far left swings to far right. We need more balance

WhereIsMyJumper @ 09.58

Me too.

I feel sick at the thought of Reform ever being the party of government but I completely understand how so many people have been disenfranchised by both mainstream parties. The Conservatives simply ignored many people's legitimate concerns and did nothing to help and Labour insulted people for having opinions which did not align with their new woke ethos; literally telling people their concerns are not a Labour priority. A new party seems to be listening, what are people supposed to do? Vote for whoever their 'betters' instruct them to or take a chance on something different to shake things up.

I await responses from angry wokists with such piss poor reading comprehension they will not understand what I've written.

We know. You interpret this as bigotry becoming acceptable again rather than a reaction to the excesses of woke which is why the current direction of travel will continue until the sanctimonious wokists start to listen and show some humility.

Exactly, @SillyMillie90 . You often get, “Oh, you’re a fascist/racist/Reform” if you express the mildest criticism of clearly nutty or even offensive ideas. The most angry I’ve ever been (on MN and practically ever) was when some poster defended defended the Manchester bomber - apparently a more worthy victim than those murdered.

Me too 😂

Angry wokists don’t understand nuance most of the time. Thats how seemingly sensible suggestions such as “we can’t have unchecked masses of illegal immigrants coming to the UK” gets misread as “I hate all brown people”

Ive definitely noticed a shift on MN since the last local elections. Reform was like anathema on here before then, but people have become emboldened by the huge gains they have made and are now making mainly sensible arguments in favour of voting for them. People don’t necessarily get scoffed at or told they are thick for voting for them anymore. Not that long ago, I’d have laughed in someone’s face if they said I would EVER consider an argument that’s pro Farage!

Now, as I said above, I do not know who I will vote for. Next general election is a way off yet. There’s still chance for Labour to pull it back or for any of the other main parties to step up more than they have once they realise there is a very real chance Farage will take no. 10. Who knows what the political landscape in the UK will be like. But, and I say this with a hard hat on, I’m not going to completely rule out voting for Reform.

The most angry I’ve ever been (on MN and practically ever) was when some poster defended defended the Manchester bomber - apparently a more worthy victim than those murdered.

Today alone I've seen at least two posters worrying about the "poor children" who raped the girl in Ballymena.

Allegedly. There hasn't been a trial.

🙄🥱

Interestingly a lot of young people I know are not left wing. They’re not hooray Young Conservatives, they’re not Andrew Tate weirdos - they are afraid of increasing taxes, afraid that they are seen as cash cows to milk to give to those not contributing, afraid of crime in cities that is spiralling and afraid that there us a pervading culture of belittling people like them.

Yeah thats horrific - and a prime example of what we’re talking about.

I’d always seen myself as ‘liberal’ I don’t call myself that any more. It’s becomes part to me that radical liberals don’t want inclusivity or diversity they want exclusion of whoever doesn’t fit their current narrative. I also see more aggression and less understanding coming from the left.

Also this:
Angry wokists don’t understand nuance most of the time. Thats how seemingly sensible suggestions such as “we can’t have unchecked masses of illegal immigrants coming to the UK” gets misread as “I hate all brown people”

My grandmother was an immigrant, she (French) met my Grandad during WWII and came over here. They married, she worked hard and was fluent in both languages since I can remember. She became a British citizen. These are the immigrants supporting this country, working in the NHS etc. Illegal immigrants are just that, illegal, unchecked, unknown backgrounds. I will probably get flamed for this now but if they wouldn’t get through passport control in an airport then they really shouldn’t be here.

Exactly my point. And yet, apparently many of the stats used to reinforce how ill-treated transwomen are come from that demographic.

Yes, it took a while to get going but an excellent piece overall.

Back in my day, failing to put forward a reasoned argument to support your view meant that you had lost the debate. These days, refusing to discuss something means that moral right must somehow be on your side.

A personal turning point for me was when I realised that I would not have been a suffragette. I utterly believe in a woman’s right to vote and think it should be extended to sixteen year olds today, but do I believe that it justified the suffragettes sending letter bombs, placing bombs in multiple locations, burning down houses and attempting to burn down a packed theatre during a political speech by detonating a bomb near the stage? No. I would have been a suffragist and believe that words and peaceful acts of protest are far better than violent deeds.

The suffragettes weren’t ‘ahead of their time’ in any sense apart from their cause - in terms of their methods they were abhorrent violent terrorists who should be regarded in the same light as other terrorist groups.

Stephen Fry has articulated this issue perfectly -

“It’s a strange paradox, that the liberals are illiberal in their demand for liberality. They are exclusive in their demand for inclusivity. They are homogenous in their demand for heterogeneity. They are somehow un-diverse in their call for diversity — you can be diverse, but not diverse in your opinions and in your language and in your behaviour. And that’s a terrible pity."

They are homogenous in their demand for heterogeneity.

All of them?

Do you know I think you deserve a ‘touche‘ for that. That’s a very good point, fair play 👏

So you reserve the right to ;

be transphobic ;
to enforce the arbitrary and violent injustice of nation state borders;
to support a regime that has been enforcing apartheid for decades and is currently implementing genocide;
and you oppose action drawing attention to the destruction of the planet which sustains all forms of life on earth.

And we are not allowed to strongly disagree with you on these points because it’s “out of touch” and “woke”?

And you also think this is an original sentiment that requires its own thread.

Cool beans OP.

😂👌🏻

This kind of thing is a waste of time. You are fighting an imaginary foe, using your time to mock rather than persuade, and somehow now it's OP's fault that your agenda hasn't advanced.

You are very welcome to argue against nation state borders. But you should actually do so if you want to bring anyone with you.

All nuance lost. You don’t get it

Can you explain why you believe I am “fighting an imaginary foe”?

Also why and how the things I despise are not the fault of the people who are opposing efforts to change them?

Also how I am the one who seeks to mock, when , instead of engaging in a substantive discussion about the issues , OP started a thread about blue haired, nose-pierced, woke-warriors?

Exhibit A.

I rest my case.