Great article in the Guardian about wokeism

[inkognitha]

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2025/jun/10/how-does-woke-start-winning-again

Good morning everyone.
Today, even the Guardian admits woke isn’t working.

« Yet Progressive Activists’ fatal flaw, the report argues, is that they’re further from mainstream public opinion on cultural issues than they realise. They’re the only group where a majority thinks that immigration should be as high or higher than it is now, and that protecting people from hate speech matters more than defending free speech (a key rationale behind “no debate” – the idea that trans identities aren’t up for discussion – and “no platforming”). They’re also the group most likely to think social change sometimes requires breaking the law, whereas two-thirds of Britons disapprove of protesters blocking roads or gluing themselves to things.
Tryl stresses that being outliers doesn’t invariably make Progressive Activists wrong – perhaps they’re just ahead of the curve, as the suffragettes once were – but it has important tactical implications. His polling shows that Progressive Activists overestimate by a factor of two to three how much others agree with their core beliefs, from abolishing the monarchy to letting children change gender. Consequently they tend to invest too little time on persuasion, focusing instead on mobilising the masses they wrongly imagine are on board. “If you’re reaching out to people, then you’re watering down,” is how Tryl describes this mindset.
While successful campaigns usually build the broadest base possible, Progressive Activists also tend to be purists, rejecting supporters who don’t endorse a complete worldview. (More than a quarter wouldn’t campaign alongside someone who believes – as a majority of Britons do – in Israel’s right to exist, for example.) Their yearning for grand systemic change means they can sound dismissive of other people’s small but well-meaning efforts, and they’re also unusually keen on correcting other people’s “mistakes” on diversity issues, something other groups consider likely to cause embarrassment. »

I hope some of the keyboard warriors/bullies roaming this board and the blue-haired, nose-pierced authoritarians will have a read, and at last, a think on how they do more harm than good.

I did say I’m a Green for my sins! The only reason I’m still a member is because my local branch do a lot of good stuff on the ground. I despair of the sanctimony and cancelling that is happening nationally! I probably won’t vote for anyone come the next election the way things are going!

There we go! This is fascinating as well. Apparently if you challenge Reform supporters you push them further towards Reform because they don't like it. I've never known people so sensitive.

See, this is kind of perfect. I’d always say greens were on the left. You’re a member of the Green Party. I have never voted for them. But I respect your opinion that they’re the party for you. Our politics are different from each other’s but I completely agree with every word you have said.

It's a shame because if they got their act together, they would be a viable alternative for many.

It isn’t transphobic. It’s just not sharing your world view.

Or to put it another way, if this opinion deserves the label Transphobe!, then frankly so what? Why should anyone care if it makes you angry that someone might have the audacity to say “It isn’t possible to change sex”? You know just as well as they do that it isn’t possible to change sex, and your BeKind or we’ll go all Sarah Jane Barker just doesn’t wash any more.

Me being an atheist is not anti-Semitic, Islamophobic, anti-Christian nor erasing Sikhs Buddhists and Buddhists!

If I were as given to hyperbole as you are, the mud I’d fling back (Paedophile enabler! supporter of Child genital mutilation! Misogynist! Stalinist!) would be much darker, but more likely to stick to how people view you.

You are living by a lie.

Oh, I’m despairing of my own party and how they are behaving nationally too. The thing is, most of the people in the party at local level don’t want much to do with how the party is being run right now. The way they are treating the trans issue is a case in point! We just want them to get back to caring about the bloody environment again!

Yep, fair point and totally agree

No, I doubt that Reform voters care what you think of them - I know I don't. I said you're helping Farage because he's playing the long game and you can't even see it. Diversionary tactics.

Sigh.

The problem with the right wing free speech brigade is their inconsistency.

It's - apparently - essential to free speech that we should be allowed to call transwomen men and trans-positive women handmaidens; but it's unacceptable to say thats TERFs are bigots or describe people as cis.

One or t'other.

As someone who has 0% chance of voting Reform, I’m curious what you think you are achieving here.

There are lots of people in the world who do support Reform.

What’s the value in taking people who aren’t Reform supporters and trying to persuade them that in fact they are?

Not really a good example because it isn’t bigoted to call a man a man. Trying to stop someone from saying something that’s objectively true is an assault on free speech.

I kind of think that Free Speech is held dear to most on the political spectrum (apart from the extremes of both ends) or it should be.
I’ve heard far left people outwardly state that people shouldn’t be allowed to express an opinion unless it’s one they agree with.

I certainly believe in it. And I don’t like the hypocrisy of either side.

I'm not. You seem very keen to interpret everything I say from your own perspective.

And no one is saying you can’t call someone a bigot. What most of us object to is all the women who’ve been fired and cancelled and been on the receiving end of rape and death threats just for saying transwomen are men. That’s the problem.

You give Farage way too much credit. You say Reform voters don't care, so why would what I say push them further towards Reform? Surely what I say doesn't matter. I've never known people less likely to listen to anyone, you're quite right.

You give Farage too little credit.

Aargh. That's the point. What you think (transwomen are men) becomes True and so can be said. What others think (TERFs are bigots) becomes False and so can't be said. If you genuinely believe, as OP seems to, in absolute value of free speech then you have to accept both.

Helpfully, I don't. So I don't think there should be threats of violence against TERFs or gender crits or whatever the snowflakes want to be called this week.

Also, as per Kathleen Stock 'cancelled' seems to mean 'gained lucrative media career'. You can make a very cosy living in the UK out of being anti-woke. Sort of a reverse cancelling.

Shame nobody's listening to you - on the threats of violence, that is.

ETA @ohforpetessake

Sure. He's a cognitive giant.

I thought a transwoman was an individual who was biologically male who considers that they have the gender identity of a female, so surely the very essence of a transwoman is being both a transwoman and a male. I thought that it was the interface between those two things that causes the individual to require help, understanding and validation.

People who are already wanting to vote for him already give him credit.
People who are vehemently anti-Farage are definitely not giving him enough credit, I agree.

The point being, if people don’t want him in power, they need to start taking him seriously. He’s gaining popularity. If people dont take him seriously he will be in no.10 come next GE in my opinion.

That’s why I asked a question: I’m interested what you think you are achieving, from your perspective.

This in spades.

If Transwomen are genuinely women, why would they feel the need to convince everyone else.
I don’t need to convince anyone that I am a woman because I am one.

Material reality is true, it’s not a matter of what someone thinks. You’re free to think GC people are bigots, but you shouldn’t be free to silence them, harangue them, get them fired or send rape threats to them with impunity. Call me a bigot all day long, fine, but some of that other stuff has a silencing effect and that is wrong.