Cancelling a day out due to misbehaviour.

[survivalinsufficient]

Unsure who is being unreasonable here.

Family day out is planned to a country house type place. Grandparents, Uncle&Aunt, parents and their 3.5 year old all going. Plan is to meet at parents house and go from there (all couples in their own cars).

When grandparents arrive, 3.5 throws a full mug of tea all over his grandads legs/feet. Just completely random, but a real pattern of behaviour here that parents are trying to work on with their child. It hurts Grandad, tea all over carpet, everyone a bit upset. Both parents are a bit stressed.

Child refuses to apologise for bad behaviour. One parent then decided that they are not going on the day out. Working on consequences of actions with child at the moment - bad behaviour, no apology, day out with family cancelled.

Grandparents and Uncle&Aunt don’t undermine parents and although are sad they go on their way to the day out. When they’ve left - other parent goes mad. Thinks it’s complete overreaction, thinks won’t impact child’s behaviour, ruined a day out for the whole family over what they consider a small incident.

Now caused massive disagreement within the family. Who was in the right? Was this an overreaction?

In my experience the consequence of behaviours (good or bad) have to be immediate for a young child to really make the connection between the action and reaction.
In this case I don't think that your DC will really have understood that the reason he wasn't going out was because he threw a cup a while ago. At 3 and a half they go where they are taken so not going somewhere won't have had an impact anyway.
I would have taken my DC out of the room immediately and isolated them from the fun of doting family. I would have explained why and also why what they had done was so bad. I would have let them back after a short while but ask family not to make fuss.
At that age an apology is just words but I would have tried to make the connection that throwing the cup had really hurt someone he loves. I may have asked them to ask Grandad if his leg was still sore and could he do anything to make him feel better.

No, I meant gentle parenting.

It's subjective I guess whether the punishment for the child in this case is overly punitive. I'd suggest it wasn't as it didn't impact the child too harshly IMO.

Then fair play to the parent who had the balls to say, "Right, that's it, no fun day out for you!"

Actions have consequences. If he's old enough to know full well he shouldn't have done it, then he's old enough to understand the cancelled day out as a result - especially as OP mentions the refusal to apologise & it being something that they're working on, so this sort of behaviour is obviously not an isolated incident.

How can you allow a child to wilfully do that, knowing it's wrong & then 5 mins later, when he's refused to even apologise, bundle him into a car for a fun day out with the family- including the person he's 'hurt'??

I agree, you ANBU. Children need rules. The world lives by rules. Where children don't understand a consequence or understand about following rules, you end up with kids who don't care.
We're fairly strict and over the years my kids have suffered consequences. But we have children that understand things can only be pushed so far, actions have a consequences and sometimes you have to own an action and that apologies need to be made.
Hopefully your DS realises that behaviour led him to miss out on xyz

We had a very similar scenario pop up when my DS was 3. He did something he knew he shouldn't, repeatedly in front of us despite us saying not to (whilst getting across the room to stop him).
We had a big day out planned, an event so not like we could just go another day.

We went on the day out, my DH actually had to stay home to sort what my DS had done but it would of meant several people including myself, other family and other DC missing out if we hadn't gone.
DS doesnt realise his dad lost out that day, for his behaviour.
I was praised for my strict parenting with my first born, my DS? Nothing I did with my first works.

You need to parent the child you have, not the one you want.
Absolutely encourage apologies, manners and polite behaviour but also remember that your child is learning, and they learn by doing the wrong thing as much as the right thing, it's not a one lesson and your taught situation.

This thread is very interesting. Has made me wonder op, between you and your husband who both parent and were raised differently, who is happiest? Who is the most joyful day to day? No agenda just interest

But did he/ will he learn from it is the question. The op suggests this is a pattern of behaviour that isn't being remedied by consequences such as the one used.

my hv told us not to be so ready with the word No,
there are other techniques.

and i agree the punishment was too late, it should have been immediate.

I don't think it's an appropriate consequence for the child's age and it ruined it for tje rest of the family. What would the consequence of been of there were other children that the day would have been spoilt for or if this happened before a family holiday?

Op says it's recent behaviour so possibly too early to tell, but given the other parents reaction I'm assuming this is probably the first time a punishment like this has happened.

I still believe op was absolutely right based off info given and the other parent sounds like a drip.

The fact that it is a pattern

both of mine were in different ways hard work at that age but picking up and throwing a cup of tea at someone is quite a deliberate act and refusing to apologise is on the extreme side that I would want to know why

How his behaviour normally in biggish groups and does he like seeing his grandad?

the consequence doesn’t match the behaviour .

My D’s has adhd so cancelling behaviours which meant he stayed home was a punishment for everyone .

short punishments / consequences are far more effective .

Yes you do need to teach children right from wrong .

people get tied up with the word sorry . When actually what else could you have done made them clean it up , not the broken cup obviously , rub it better , give a hug if it’s an adult they do hug .

what happened with your day ? You went home - you argued by virtue they are 3 will have played and you ruined your day .

you also both need to have a conversation about parenting - you both need to agree because there is a middle ground between positive parenting and completely authoritarian.

he was probably overwhelmed by the company

I'll probably get flamed for this as parenting these days is weak and there's always an excuse for everything.

You did 1000% the right thing. Your child is 3.5. They know what they did was wrong. They refused to apologise. They got a consequence.

Why is setting clear boundaries and consequences seen as such a bad thing or overkill! Your child hasn't been hurt, they are still loved and safe, but they know that it's not acceptable behaviour.

My DC is now almost 7 and is mostly(!!) a delightful child. Loved, secure, but knowing what is acceptable and that if they push it too far that there will be consequences.

In contrast their bestie the other day (accidentally) walloped my partner in the balls so he was doubled over in pain, parents said to say sorry and they refused, then 5 mins later were being given a chocolate bar. Just one example of a pattern of behaviour I see constantly where parents don't parent.

So I'm totally with you.

You’re not. I’d have been appalled if you had just carried on with the day as though nothing had happened.

It’s obvious that it’s Parent A who started this thread 😂.

You can raise a well behaved child without such dramatic punishments.

Your child is 3.5. A telling off and a 10 min punishment seem like a big deal to a 3.5 year old. Personally what I would have done was knelt down at the child’s level and using a firm (and scandalised lol) but not shouty voice said “you have just poured tea all over grandad. That is not a kind or sensible thing to do. Now poor grandad is wet and his clothes are all dirty. Is that how we treat our family? Yes or no?” (Get child to say no so they are verbalising that this is not acceptable behaviour). “You are going to go to your room and think about your behaviour while I help grandad clean up” (put child in room for what is effectively a time out. If they come out before you get them then put them back in there. After 5 mins go into the room “grandad is cleaned up now and is feeling a bit better. I would like you to come out and say sorry to him. If you don’t say sorry to him you will not be getting (insert something fun / treat like that would have happened on the outing or later that day).”

a bit later in the day once emotions have calmed down and child has had time to reflect, perhaps when you arrive at wherever you go out, turn to your child and reiterate the behaviour that happened earlier with something like “I expect good behaviour on this outing. Remember what happened earlier with the tea on grandad. If I see bad behaviour on this trip you will not be getting (insert whatever fun or treat like thing you said earlier). Do you understand?” (Wait for a nod or “yes”). Then say something to lighten the mood like “good, because it’s going to be such a fun trip with all these people that love you. And I know you’re a lovely boy, that’s why when you threw the tea on grandad it surprised me because you don’t normally do things like that.”

i don’t let my child think they are a naughty child or that is how they will behave. Only that they made a mistake that they won’t make again. I also don’t do big punishments at that kind of age because it is overkill, the kid gets into a negative cycle of thought that goes on all day, and something that was probably a thoughtless action (rather than a mean / deliberately naughty action) defines them for a long period of time. Keep it clear that was not acceptable, but also breezy so it doesn’t bog down the child. They learn and move on.

So the consequence of throwing things is missing a day out… well, what if there isn’t a day out ahead? What’s the consequence? The natural consequence of throwing is that people get hurt and property is damaged. So that’s what he needs to understand. Don’t punish the emotion, punish the action of throwing by making the consequences (hurt grandad) very explicit.

@survivalinsufficient you have been accused of being strict because you are.
The consequences aren’t logical. I also have a bright child the same age, I know it’s very hard work but some of your ideas about conformity are setting everyone up to fail.

A child can be really intelligent but is still a child with poor impulse control. In my family circle I see people equate intelligence with ‘should know better’ when maturity is a different thing. It’s why my own mother resisted strongly when school tried to move one of us up a year.

But you seem to think that your child has behavioural problems that are above what is typical of a child his age. So either your way of parenting isn’t effective or your child is behaving in a manner typical for his age.

I think that you don't have a brilliant understanding of child development if you think a 3.5 yo has a full of understanding, of course they don't! Their brain isn't anything like an adult's brain.

The fact that a 3.5 yo can understand and articulate what you want them to do is a different skill from being able to restrain their impulse in the moment.

I think the person at fault is whoever left a hot drink where it could be accessed, and cancelling a day out will not change anything. I also think it was very rude to the extended family.

I would be incredible shocked if a 3.5yr old deliberately did this on purpose! They know at that age how dangerous that is and would make a big mess.
I agree with the poster that said I wouldn’t have cancelled the day as that negatively impacts others and isn’t directly related to the incident.

I think I would be working massively on their empathy skills - making a big fuss of grandad, running leg under water to check not burnt, asking if he’s ok, to teach child how scary and dangerous it was. Speaking very sternly about what the impact of his actions were and could have been. Going back to closed lid cups for child for a few days and then saying here’s an open cup can you use it sensibly? Showing child about hot - the hot tap, hot food, hot drinks and explaining what could happen if you touch it - it would hurt, could hurt someone…
If this didn’t work long term and he kept doing things like this then there would definitely be something else going on here with that child to look into.

You majorly overreacted and I’m not surprised your husband is annoyed. Were they your parents or his coming over, as that could make you even more unreasonable.

Reasonable consequences would have been making them help clean up or putting them in a brief time out to calm their emotions before you went out. His action was clearly for attention and you played right into his hands, when you should instead have focussed on helping grandad, really emphasising that your child’s action had hurt or upset someone else.

If you insist on giving “strict” consequences, you should have said he wouldn’t get a treat while you were out or he doesn’t get to choose the music in the car. Something he’ll care about but not something that would ruin everyone’s day. Those consequences would still be silly (because at 3.5 they don’t really link a naughty action to an unrelated punishment) but better than what you did.

Also when you insist children apologise they can often feel backed into a corner and stubborn and won’t do it. They absolutely should apologise but at 3 I would model apologising and show the child how we should behave. “When you have hurt someone we need to say sorry. I’m so sorry grandad. What can we get grandad to help him feel better?”

Also, you seem to think that disciplining a child means “what can I do that will upset them the most so they ‘learn’”, which is pretty sad.

What would the consequences have been if he had physically attacked your dad and left him bruised or bleeding? Or if he’d thrown the mug at his head and concussed him? Or if he’d destroyed every soft furnishing in the room?

If you’re using the worst level punishment you can think of in the moment for any misbehaviour, you’re not going to be effective at all. Why should your child behave themselves at all if a relatively minor impulsive action gets the same nuclear response as an all out horrific one? “Might as well be hanged for a sheep as a lamb” is an expression for a reason.