Cancelling a day out due to misbehaviour.

[survivalinsufficient]

Unsure who is being unreasonable here.

Family day out is planned to a country house type place. Grandparents, Uncle&Aunt, parents and their 3.5 year old all going. Plan is to meet at parents house and go from there (all couples in their own cars).

When grandparents arrive, 3.5 throws a full mug of tea all over his grandads legs/feet. Just completely random, but a real pattern of behaviour here that parents are trying to work on with their child. It hurts Grandad, tea all over carpet, everyone a bit upset. Both parents are a bit stressed.

Child refuses to apologise for bad behaviour. One parent then decided that they are not going on the day out. Working on consequences of actions with child at the moment - bad behaviour, no apology, day out with family cancelled.

Grandparents and Uncle&Aunt don’t undermine parents and although are sad they go on their way to the day out. When they’ve left - other parent goes mad. Thinks it’s complete overreaction, thinks won’t impact child’s behaviour, ruined a day out for the whole family over what they consider a small incident.

Now caused massive disagreement within the family. Who was in the right? Was this an overreaction?

There is a lot of ways to raise a child that understands actions have consequences without negativity impacting other people

I would have done the same.
He threw a mug of tea at a person - he didn’t tip it by mistake .
The day out was directly afterwards.
No way I would have taken him.
I wouldn’t have cancelled something the next date, or even the afternoon of the same day. but a reward directly afterwards - no wat.

You have shown him that unless he says words he doesn’t mean (to fulfil a social contract you think is important) then he will be punished. He won’t associate the throwing moment - which is amigdala response to something and don’t get me wrong NOT OK- with missing the trip. He will also have sensed that you and other parent are not aligned so damage there. Consequences only really work if they have been explicitly laid out and are consistent - if I throw I won’t be able to go out.
It can’t be off the cuff ‘oh well you’ve done it now, we aren’t going’ because doing that hasn’t altered what’s happened and it won’t prevent it from happening again. He will defo do it again because he is 3 …and unless you deal with a big thing: WHY did he throw something?

You 💯 did the right thing bringing him home. He refused to apologise. At 3 they have an understanding of saying sorry.

I think parent A was in the right, if the child can not be trusted not to hurt others by throwing cups at them then they shouldn't be taken to a place where they could run amok such as a country house. Imagine the damage they could do there.

With parent B at this point. Family days out with the child at a stately home are more for the adults than the child and this spoiled it.

Agree with parent A you can’t let that go though. Next time ask other adults to mind child for 1 minute while parents agree together on consequence.

A reasonable one IMO is the one parent goes back to car/quiet area for a very boring half hour with child, doesn’t engage/chat, when they understand the consequence and agree to say sorry they can rejoin the group later. Any further bad behaviour, straight home.

Was it Parent A's family or Parent B's? If B's I can understand B being a little upset at having to cancel the family day out, which they and others were looking forward to, because of child's behaviour. Especially as a country house is not a huge treat for a child. That said, Grandad may have been relieved

Op, you've said that this is a pattern of behaviour that you're clearly concerned about in your son. So it seems that the very punitive/ consequences driven approach may not actually be working to correct the behaviour. If this is the case, perhaps this approach might need a rethink?

Some children respond better to being removed from the immediate situation (eyes watching and judging is detrimental both to the child and the parents in this situation) and allowed to calm down before calmly but firmly talking about the behaviour/ implementing a consequence/ agreeing to apologise for their behaviour.

My dd never apologises in the immediate aftermath of an incident, she just escalates or becomes mute. Once she reflects, she invariably understands, processes and makes things right. She's 8, much older. At 3.5 she wouldn't have connected a cancelled day out to the behaviour. In your situation, my dh is you and I am the other parent.

The most important thing to do is agree together on how you'll handle these situations in future because you're likely undermining one another. What I'm saying is that you can likely reach an agreement on something that is somewhere in the middle. Fwiw, I do think your reaction was over the top, and likely fuelled by embarrassment about your son's behaviour - i.e you want to be seen to be doing something to actively address it. And I understand that reaction (I've been there). He does clearly need to learn rules and boundaries, but it doesn't sound like your approach is currently working.

you should pre-empt this attention seeking behaviour.
move cups out of reach, anything that can be a "weapon"
i remember my dc completely behaving badly in company of older relatives.
keep an eye at all times,
keep him occupied

A toddler can’t possibly understand any of this, cancelling the day was a total overreaction.

The incident simply required a quiet word with the toddler about the dangers of hot drinks etc and that would be the end of it in our house. Later a picture would be drawn for the grandparent, and an apology offered, once things had calmed down.

I am a foundation stage teacher and every year we observe that children's behaviour is getting worse. Children aren't told 'no'. They aren't given consequences. I understand this too as a parent. I have let my kids get away with far too much and at times this reflects in their behaviour. Well done OP for making a difficult decision. At nearly 4 your child absolutely needs to know consequences. At school kids know that it's wrong to throw. Yes your child has poor impulse control but they still need to be taught right from wrong.

A quiet word for deliberately hurting someone?! The child is old enough to know better.

I think it was absolutely right to cancel the day out.

Child is old enough to know what they did was wrong. Anecdotally I've seen many kids of "gentle parenting" turn out to be absolute thugs then the parents hand-wring over how that happened.

it was cold tea

This child seemingly is told no, he is given consequences and yet it is having no impact on improving his behaviour from what the op has said. If a child isn't learning from consequences then an alternative approach may be necessary (since surely seeing an improvement as a result of consequences is why they're applied as a behaviour management technique). Even if that's just both parents getting on the same page, meeting in the middle and agreeing on how to handle situations like this so that nobody need be undermined.

There’s a massive difference between saying sorry, and really meaning it. I know it’s not the same situation at all, but we’ve seen plenty of adults who think that “sorry” can get them out of anything. Remember the bankers who crashed the world economy in 2008, and the only consequence they faced was having to say “sorry”? They still kept their millions, while everyone else suffered.

And Boris Johnson. He believed that you can just say “sorry” and all is forgiven. “I’m sorry that behaviour in Downing Street wasn’t what it should have been.” He has since as good as said (when he realised that “sorry” wouldn’t help him) that he regrets apologising, and that he didn’t really mean it.

I know it’s hardly the same comparison as making a child say “sorry”, but it illustrates the meaninglessness of the stock word “sorry”.

I think you might be confusing gentle parenting with permissive parenting. Gentle parenting is no more or less than applying age appropriate behaviour correction techniques based on cognitive brain development. I'd also argue that anecdotally, I've seen just as many failed products of overly punitive parenting as permissive parenting - though they present in different ways.

I think it was the right thing to do. He was given the opportunity to apologise, and didn’t so that does need to be followed up with a consequence. I can’t believe some posters thinking a child of that age can’t be blamed for their actions, he knew that throwing a mug of tea at his grandad was wrong, and refused to apologise. Poor little Johnny didn’t know what he was doing? Give me a break. That behaviour needs nipping in the bud.

I have a child exactly the same age and a nephew also the same age. My child would understand this was wrong and it would also understand the consequence. My nephew would not. My point is, you know your child and what they are capable of understanding. In this case there would also be consequences for my child who would totally know this was wrong. Or at least will do after the punishment.

I probably would have removed screen time or something else instead of cancelling the day completely, simply because the other family had made a trip specially. But its your child, your choice. It is good to see parents actually following through though - because that doesn’t always happen.

Stern telling off immediately. If child tantrums remove from situation until calm.

Child to check on Grandpa and make sure he's ok. Say sorry if they want to.

Child tidies up mess they made.

Family goes out on trip as usual.

Canceling a family day out for a 3 year olds behavior is giving said 3 year old way too much power. Your child has learnt if they misbehave all the adults around will change their behavior. Child wouldn't have seen day out as a treat anyway. Your 'consequence' made no sense.

I also agree with others that your expectations are off. Even if your child is extremely bright, that has nothing to do with emotional regulation and control. Thats beyond your child for many years yet. Yes, he knows it was wrong. That doesn't mean he's able to stop himself in the moment.

What you've actually taught your child is- I can get the adults to cancel their plans for me if I misbehave. Awful lesson for a child.

My youngest was similarly impulsive and unrepentant at that age. At the time we almost lost our minds over it on occasion! Their self-control and emotional insight are not well-developed at that age (less than a year from toddlerhood!), and I don't think a punishment like the one you describe will achieve anything more than what a more immediate and less globally disruptive punishment, such as a timeout, in the moment would have.

When you look back at your parenting in years to come you will never regret being soft hearted with your dc, you will however regret being unnecessarily hard on them.
My two are adults and I can remember every incident where I should have been more chilled and mine were generally very well behaved dc.

Your 3.5 year old knows what he did was wrong because he’s been told throwing is wrong. However he doesn’t understand that throwing could result in pain or damage, not properly.
His childhood years will pass so quickly, enjoy them.

Last night I did not see that the tea was cold before beginning my post.

However that is a very fine distinction for a 3.5 yo hurling a teacup to make. This behaviour must be stopped before someone is scalded.

Perhaps a different consequence would have resonated more, but given that DS made the connection between hurling the teacup and missing the event at bedtime, this seems to have done the job. That link was good but IMO not unusual for a bright child.

However, OP, those making the point that if his behaviour is escalating the consequences may be too harsh may well be on to something. Also, you and DH need to find a good middle ground.

Have you tried rewarding good behaviour and totally ignoring behaviour? As in over the top with the good behaviour, DC wil be totally surprised at the beginning but it really does work. Fantastic breathing DC, look dad at how well DC is at eating their cereal etc, etc, etc.

I think just apologise to your parents that the day was spoiled.