Is it normal school asking us to pay for additional support?

[OnlyOneBike]

Son is nearly 5 years old and in reception of an independent school. We've been told he has behaviour issues in school such as making silly noises in classes or pushing down other children's lego etc. He is probably sat out two / three times per week. We've observed him playing in groups (birthday parties, clubs, etc). He's definitely the less destructive type but can become overexcited quite easily and do silly things especially among children. He's behaving much better with grown ups. Teachers and we all agree his main problem is impulse control.

We regularly talk to his teachers to make sure we can reflect with him any incidents in school. Now is the confusing bit. One of his form teachers (they have two because of job sharing) who is also school SENCO thinks he needs additional support and has asked us many times to consider additional support from a named therapist at an additional cost. The other form teacher seems to be ok with the current situation and is always quiet when we talked about additional support.

We are not against having more support if that's needed but we feel very unsure. For one, the cost really puts us off. For two, we don't know anything about this named therapist and don't feel very comfortable for our son to have to meet them regularly without us.

We asked the school SENCO if our son needs a diagnosis or can we go through the standard council process and request someone whose qualification is more visible like doctor from NHS to help us (EHC or something I think it's called?). But they said it was nothing like that and he didn't need a diagnosis.

Please can experienced parents share their thoughts on this? Does this sound the right approach? Should we accept what the SENCO proposed? Should we talk to the headmaster? We are definitely willing to work with the school and support our child as needed. But we have zero experience. Nor do our family or freinds. Desperately need some independent opinions. Thanks in advance!

My children were at independent school.

it’s normal for parents to pay the extra cost of support if needed.
my son had speech therapy from a therapist who came into school and worked with him. 60 quid an hour.

depending on what support they think your child needs, in a state school it would either
a) not exist
b) you’d see the speech therapist or other person outside school on the nhs and they might contact school to ask them to do exercises etc in school tome
c) they’d never see a professional and a TA would offer group support

Very normal to have to pay extra for additional SEN support at independent school - whether that is 1:1 tutoring / support, or external therapies coming in. Even if your DS had a diagnosis, it is very likely you'd still have to pay for this while at independent school.

A bit of info here that may help

https://www.ipsea.org.uk/faqs/my-child-attends-and-independent-school-and-we-pay-the-fees-are-children-at-independent-settings-entitled-to-support

I think part of what you pay for I no an independent school is a less distracting environment for your child to learn. Whether that’s by parents of children who need more paying for additional support or them being politely asked to find an alternative.

Posdibly your child will settle down and be fine, possibly he’d benefit from early intervention. The bar for help is set much higher at state schools so no help from that avenue.

We are in the independent school and pay for additional support/tutoring. We also had learning psychology assessment done through school (£600). Nothing major came up but because of the diagnosis he has, now he gets extra time and support at the exams

The other teacher is deferring to the SENCO.

Ask to be put in touch with the therapist and about their initial assessments. Ask to meet them etc. Ask what type of things your son will work on.

by all means ask to meet with the head but they are likely to meet with the SENCo or ask the SENCo to join the meeting. You’d be unlikely to get more information from them.

if you want to work with the school I’d suggest accepting the therapy. It is normal to pay for therapy in private. If you also want to speak to the GP about issues raised then do, but you’ll get much better support when it’s privately organised.

My daughter is at an independent school and we don't pay for her extra support. She does have an EHCP though so probably comes out of those funds

This is a normal approach in private school.

You can apply for an EHCP - if successful then the state would pay for the additional support (ie you’d pay for the private school fees, but the state would cover the extra support).

However the reality is the vast majority of applications are rejected, it will cost you thousands to go through tribunals to challenge the refusal, any support you get will be absolute bare minimum of what your child needs, and the school may decide that a child with severe enough needs to get an EHCP is going to be too difficult for them to manage and ask you to leave. At which point you may struggle to get another private school place, and you’re then totally reliant on state.

We have two SEN kids in private school and spend a lot on the additional support.

I had a child in state school and had to pay for private therapy. He had 6 sessions funded originally, and he seemed to benefit from it. The only way he could have any more via the school was for him to be re-referred, long waiting list, no guarantee he would get any more anyway. So we bit the bullet and paid for it.

Edited to say the benefit of paying for private therapy is that it isn't dictated by waiting lists, or other children taking precedent, or school term times. You are paying, it can be when you want it. My DS saw the same counsellor from about 6 years onwards, and occasionally sees her now (he is 22). He would see her for a few months at a time, on and off, and if something happened then we could just pick up the phone and get something booked. She got to know him well over the years, and it was good for him to know there was someone in the wings he could ask to see - which he did from time to time. This level of input wouldn't have been available via the school.

What sort of specialist/therapy are they suggesting? You could look for recommendations and take him outside school hours if you want to have more control/involvement.
Have they mentioned ADHD? Reduced impulse control could be part of this, or he could just be developing at a different pace to his peers. Is he younger in the year group?

We paid for extra support for an SEN child at an independent school. This is normal. You can apply for an EHCP and if that states that these extra interventions are necessary then the state pays the school if the cost of meeting the extra needs is greater than a threshold amount (I think it's £6000 per year) but the process of getting that statement of needs takes at least 2 years. If behaviour issues start to make a child too disruptive in a classroom of otherwise well-behaved children, some independent schools would be asking a child to leave long before that process concludes. Tbh it doesn't sound like your child needs support at that kind of level though - if you aren't comfortable with being funnelled to the specific therapist that has been recommended, find a different one. Better to get help sooner rather than later if it's needed.

In the private sector very normal. Ask if the therapist visits others and whether you can meet them before they observe your child. How tolerant of SEND is the school, might they manage your dc out longer term?

Of course you have to pay for additional support if it's needed. Other parents shouldn't be subsiding it through their fees

It is normal for parents self funding independent school to have to pay for additional support.

Support in school and diagnosis are separate. You don’t need a diagnosis for support to be put in place. Although, if a diagnosis is suspected a referral is a good idea.

Can you ask more questions about the therapist? What type of therapist are they? Can you meet them first?

You can request an EHCNA yourself if you want. On their website, IPSEA has a model letter you can use. If the LA issues an EHCP, independent schools can be named in EHCPs. You would need to prove the LA’s proposed school(s) can’t meet needs &/or it isn’t unreasonable public expenditure. You would also need the school to agree to being named. And many have to appeal. If the independent school is named the EHCP, the LA would be responsible for the fees and the special educational provision. When the LA doesn’t believe the above test is met, some LAs will sometimes come to an arrangement whereby parents pay the fees and the LA pays the special educational provision, but they don’t have to and don’t always.

I think it will have to be normal to pay extra, otherwise the cost would be absorbed by the other parents in their fees too which feels unfair.

do you think this may be the start of them trying to manage him out? It might not be the best environment for him?

My son was at independant nusery attached to a private school.they identified him as SEN and had an adhd referral, the private school he was at said they would not support him at all through the school and I ended up removing him.
He went to another private school and we did have to pay for a one on one support teacher. He ended up at state primary and had amazing support there.
.
He interviewed at a private secondary and they sajd they would not support him. Another told us it would cost an arm and a leg.
State schools have to provide support, private do not have to and don't really want to either. They don't want children with difficulties and additional needs causing other parents to complain.
This has been our experience.
State primary and secondary have been amazing for my sen child and we would not have got the same support through private, even though we were willing to pay if it meant better support.
You need to ask if through the school they would provide support, if he did have a diognosis ehat would they do. How would they support him
State schools have specialist departments, whole teams dedicated, training for all teaxhers on SEN. Private schools do not have thism you have to buy your son any support he needs. Eventually they might decide he is not suited to their learning style and request you remove him anyway.
State schools legally have to support your child and are trained to do this.
Private schools in our experience just want your money and good children who learn quietly.
There are very few private schools that offer alternative learning styles but they are out there. Bit most are focussed on gettimg top grades so they can charge more, children that don't fit their moulds are a issue for them.

Yes very normal at an independent school. I used to work as a 1-1 with a child who needed additional support at an indie - the parents paid me hundreds of pounds a month over and above their fees. Most private schools are not willing to support children over and above what they consider the norm without you paying for it unfortunately.

@Todayisaday you said “State schools have specialist departments, whole teams dedicated, training for all teaxhers on SEN. Private schools do not have thism you have to buy your son any support he needs.”

I just want to pick up on that as that has not been our experience at all.

Both our kids have diagnosed SEN and are at private schools - their schools definitely have SENCOs, departments to support kids who need it, and all teachers are trained in SEN.

The amount of support and extra attention that they get included with the normal fees is already way higher than they would get in a state school because we have much smaller class sizes.

Private schools vary a lot - we chose one that is mainstream but has a good reputation for Sen support, it’s definitely possible. Sounds like you had a poor experience at private school, but it’s not fair to assume all privates are like that.

Thanks for all the kind responses. It makes much more sense now hearing lots of similar experience from other people.

I understand the point that if private support is used then we need to pay for it. I guess the bit that was confusing (sorry didn't make it clear initially) was whether we should just agree with the SENCo that addtional support by the named therapist was indeed needed. Or more frankly what if we disagree with the SENCO that he has SEN? Or what if we don't like the therapist they suggested? Does school / SENCO decide a child has SEN and the best support they require? Can they be biased? Would it not take a more scientific approach possibly by a pediatric phycoloist (not sure if it exists) to decide a child has special needs?

All the behaviour issues have been reported by teachers in the school. We often have friends commenting on how well he listens. We've seen him playing among group of children in different settings and yes he can occasionally be cheeky and teasing others but has not been the naughtiest ones (not even close if I'm honest). I can normally stop his inappropriate action by just saying stop. He doesn't have emotion control issues, barely any tantrum or anger outrageous, etc. Can concentrate on things for a long time and no problem with sitting in class or completing school work.

More generally, if child is behaving a lot better outside school, should we work with school on additional support or should we actually consider changing school?

Sorry for the long posts and as you may already noticed I am very confused and maybe a bit anxious and not sure what to do or who to trust being so inexperienced.

I'll take all the useful advice and have a think what to say when we meet the teachers. Many thanks!!

You could have him assessed by a Educational Psychologist, who would assess his needs / challenges in relation to school work - though I would question if age 5 is the right time to do this.
Clinical psychiatrists can diagnose conditions like ADHD and ASD.
I don't think seeking diagnosis is necessarily appropriate right now, given what you've said - more the SENCo / School needs to assess his needs at school, and how they will support them. If you don't want them to jump straight in to providing a private therapist, you don't have to, but you need to have honest conversations with them about what they are observing at school, and how those behaviours are best supported.
It is not unusual for an SEN child to behave differently at school and away from school - the demands and expectations on them are different, the environments are different.
My own DS received an AuDHD diagnosis in year 5 - since reception (and even nursery) the school had observed behaviours that I didn't see at home, and as he got older, it became clearer what those were. For him it is a lot of the social and communication difficulties, that just aren't apparent at home (we are too like him for it to be so obvious!), but were so clear in the context of being at school.

So I would say, have an open mind. Try not to feel affronted, judged or criticised because these things have been raised. Your DS is still very young, and it may be that he settles down and these behaviours are not so apparent when he develops more - but if he is struggling in some aspects, putting the support in for him will do a lot for him in the long run.

We had a very supporting and helpful independent primary, without whom I'm sure we wouldn't have got his diagnosis as early as we did. That's meant that he has gone on to state secondary with a really clear picture of the support he needs, and his secondary school is being absolutely wonderful with him (and consequently he is extremely happy to be there).

Thanks @Bushmillsbabe

They suggested speech therapy initially and now suggest occupational therapy. I asked if they were suspecting a diagnosis like Adhd or ocd and they said nah it was nothing like that as if I was being too serious (hence why I was a bit unsure). Yes he is on the younger side - second youngest in the class.

Yes I think we'll maybe start with outside school hours until we understand what the process involves. Thanks for the advice. That's very helpful.

It is not up to the school to diagnose, you need to decide whether he needs support inside the classroom or if after school will be pnefit him. Might be worth a visit to gp as a starting point.

In the state system yes the Senco decides whether they have special educational needs.

please do not confuse SEN with disability or even a diagnosis. The medical and educational systems do interlink but SEN is a purely educational term.

so for example say in the state sector a child is having trouble learning phonics. They get extra support from a TA. This is SEN - the child is getting additional support above and beyond the normal class therefore they have SEN.

a different child may be deaf. They have medical diagnosis and may be considered disabled and have special needs (SN). They also have SEN as they will need extra support in the classroom.

some children are disabled (SN) but do not have additional support in the classroom - for example a child with epilepsy has a diagnosis but might not have any SEN as they don’t need extra educational support.

so medical stuff is diagnosed by doctors, sometimes paediatricians etc. SEN by contrast is NOT medical. It can be, but doesn’t have to be.

Thank you. I'll definitely ask to speak with them before they start to meet dc. School is 4-7 so we are less worried about longer term with this particular school but will have to think a bit more when choosing his next school.

There is no funding for the extra support so if you want it you will have to pay.