Is it normal school asking us to pay for additional support?

[OnlyOneBike]

Son is nearly 5 years old and in reception of an independent school. We've been told he has behaviour issues in school such as making silly noises in classes or pushing down other children's lego etc. He is probably sat out two / three times per week. We've observed him playing in groups (birthday parties, clubs, etc). He's definitely the less destructive type but can become overexcited quite easily and do silly things especially among children. He's behaving much better with grown ups. Teachers and we all agree his main problem is impulse control.

We regularly talk to his teachers to make sure we can reflect with him any incidents in school. Now is the confusing bit. One of his form teachers (they have two because of job sharing) who is also school SENCO thinks he needs additional support and has asked us many times to consider additional support from a named therapist at an additional cost. The other form teacher seems to be ok with the current situation and is always quiet when we talked about additional support.

We are not against having more support if that's needed but we feel very unsure. For one, the cost really puts us off. For two, we don't know anything about this named therapist and don't feel very comfortable for our son to have to meet them regularly without us.

We asked the school SENCO if our son needs a diagnosis or can we go through the standard council process and request someone whose qualification is more visible like doctor from NHS to help us (EHC or something I think it's called?). But they said it was nothing like that and he didn't need a diagnosis.

Please can experienced parents share their thoughts on this? Does this sound the right approach? Should we accept what the SENCO proposed? Should we talk to the headmaster? We are definitely willing to work with the school and support our child as needed. But we have zero experience. Nor do our family or freinds. Desperately need some independent opinions. Thanks in advance!

You are wrong.

The 20 week timescale is set out in Regulation 13(2) of the Special Educational Needs and Disability Regulations 2014.

“A local authority must send the finalised EHC plan…as soon as practicable, and in any event within 20 weeks of the local authority receiving a request for an EHC needs assessment…”

The legal test for an EHCNA is set out in section 36(8) of the Children and Families Act 2014.

“The local authority must secure an EHC needs assessment for the child or young person if, after having regard to any views expressed and evidence submitted under subsection (7), the authority is of the opinion that
a) the child or young person has or may have special educational needs, and it may b) be necessary for special educational provision to be made for the child or young person in accordance with an EHC plan.”

9.14 of the SENCOP does list other things the LA should consider. However, the tests set out in section 36(8) of the CFA 2014 are the only lawful tests. Therefore the LA cannot lawfully refuse based on anything other than the legal tests. So, it wouldn’t be lawful to refuse just because the school has not compelled 1/2/3+ APDR cycles. It is one area the statutory guidance is not completely in line with the law. And case law established the SENCOP cannot overrule the law. IPSEA’s refusal to assess pack explains more about this discrepancy should you wish to read more.

Similarly, section 37 of the Children and Families Act 2014 sets out the legal threshold for an EHCP.

“Where, in the light of an EHC needs assessment, it is necessary for special educational provision to be made for a child or young person in accordance with an EHC plan
a) the local authority must secure that an EHC plan is prepared for the child or young person, and
b) once an EHC plan has been prepared, it must maintain the plan.”

And, like with looking at whether to assess or not, evidence from APDR cycles can be helpful evidence, but it wouldn’t be lawful for the LA to refuse just because there hasn’t been 1/2/3+ APDR cycles. It can even be possible to secure an EHCP if the school could do more but won’t.

@Labraradabrador I'm not sure what's hypothetical about what I've described.

The first intervention for my dd who was later assessed as autistic was a speech and language therapist. They did an initial assessment including general observation and identified a couple of areas to work on (emotional regulation and some specific social communication areas) and ended up working with dd for 2 terms (one session per week) with some concrete objectives that ultimately we all agreed were achieved.

my ‘neurotypical’ dd has also had ELSA support (emotional literacy) when she was having a tough time in general - probably hormonal driven at its root, but the support gave her lots of techniques to help her self regulate in difficult situations. Again, it was time limited - one term of weekly sessions - with clear objectives and a positive outcome.

We didn’t pay extra for the Elsa, but did for the SALT as well as later ed psych and autism assessments.

In my LA such support is entirely hypothetical. It exists to some extent somewhere, but never actually available to you or your child.

Thanks for those who suggested looking at state schools. Unfortunately, there is only one state school nearby but the space is very limited and we are both working parents and need lots of wrap-around care which the state school just won't be able to provide. If he had got to a very bad stage we would consider moving him.

@Labraradabrador I take your point. It's very unfair that it's such a postcode lottery. At my school we would have done exactly what you've described above as was done for your children - I could have written it myself! I'm glad they're getting the support they need. One piece of work my school is part of is the development of send hub schools so that good practice is shared and supported in schools which are struggling with meeting send needs. Again that's only within our LA though (inner city London).

Unfortunately it is not uncommon for independent schools to expect parents to cover the cost of any additional support. Particularly for SEND.

I would be inclined to ask for clarificaiton on what they believe this named therapist can deliver in terms of support. I would also ask that they, and you, keep a record of any observations of incidents and triggers etc. to try and build a clearer picture of what the apparent challenges are and how they can better support him. After all, he is only 5.

If you/they believe there may be SEN to consider, again, keeping a record will be of benefit. They should be applying the graduated approach of Assess, Plan, Do, Review (APDR) to support him. If an EHCP is applied fo rlater down the line, you'd need to demonstrate that the graduated approach had been followed.

There is a great support group called the SEN Parent Support Group on FB and via their website. There are lots of great (free) guides and resources that might help you navitage this with school, inclduign info on APDR, reasonable adjustments etc. https://www.facebook.com/groups/438202318539240

I’d go and seek a proper diagnosis before forking out money on support he either may not need or the wrong type of support.

A SEN is not a doctor or specialist psychologist and should not be recommending ‘solutions’ without a diagnosis of a ‘problem’.

I am not making a judgement about whether your DS needs support or not - I don’t know. I am saying that any support should be based on the child’s real needs rather than because the teacher knows someone or has a friend in the trade.

getting a diagnosis is a long and complicated process, and at the end of it all the diagnosis might not actually be very helpful in determining what support is required - dd is autistic, and the support she requires is dictated by where she has difficulties not her diagnosis.

also, sometimes ‘normal’ children need extra support too - other dd is neurotypical but at times has needed support. There is nothing to diagnose, but support has still been helpful,

I would caution against getting to the point where things have deteriorated so much that moving to state would be the only option. As someone with a SEND child who was initially in independent (who indeed asked for more money to support them, whilst also failing to act in accordance with the Equality Act 2010), school based trauma from being in a setting that does not support SEND is very real and very damaging. 3 years later and my child still struggles with trusting the new state school and staff (who have been amazing in comparison to previous school) and it has had what I am sure will be a life long impact. State schools also offer wrap around care (our state school care starts at 7.30am and after school runs to 6pm), or you direct the money you are spending on independent fees to a nanny, childminder or au pair etc.

If the school is not able to meet the child's needs, move them. If spaces are limited, contact the LA to advise of the situation. If they are out of school for more than 15 days (does not have to be consecutive) then you can submit a section 19 request for the LA to provide an educational offer.

Independent schools are great for some children, but not all. That really is ok.

All the small, ‘nurturing’ private schools we approached for our AuDHD son for secondary turned him down. Gave me a very different perspective on private schools I must say. He’s doing really well academically at a local state secondary -they actually care about him and his education - the impression I was left with from the private schools was that the only thing they were interested in was their profit margin.

I keep seeing one of these schools advertising their ‘nurturing sixth form who support SEN’ on facebook so I added a comment “as long as you’re not ‘too SEN’” I couldn’t help myself. I felt how dare they sell themselves in that way when they turned my son down. But on the plus side I’m saving a ton of money, especially now I’d be paying VAT on top.

Nope, recently, in my sons primary and secondary they are in now (I have two sen kids now). The support has been brilliant in both with no echps in place. Lots of free services, lots of support from specialists, sencos, therapists and teachers with trainijg in sen.

He’s only 4. IME it’s quite typical for kids of that age to make silly noises and have bursts of being destructive at times. They can get pretty overexcitable. They usually grow out of it.

If he behaves well with other kids when you observe him and you haven’t noticed him struggling with anything, I’d see how he goes.

IMHO the school (and you) should tell him he shouldn’t knock over other kids’ lego models as it’ll make them sad. If he keeps doing it, he should have a time out. But therapy seems heavy at 4.

Lucky you, but the send crisis is well documented.

It's unlawful for an LA to demand plan-do-review cycles before agreeing to an EHCP assessment.

Section 36(8) of the children's and families act 2014 states:

The local authority must secure an EHC needs assessment for the child or young person if, after having regard to any views expressed and evidence submitted under subsection (7), the authority is of the opinion that—
(a)the child or young person has or may have special educational needs, and
(b)it may be necessary for special educational provision to be made for the child or young person in accordance with an EHC plan.

I went through the entire hellish EHCP process and they tried to send schools application back and make them do two terms of Plan-Do-Review before taking the EHCP needs assessment application to Panel. The LA backed down when the school SENDCO reminded them of the law.

From a legal standpoint, for section A of the legislation, the LA have to accept any views and evidence the child may have SEN. Even parental concern is covered under the legislation because it's a "view". The law also specifies "has or may have", so again very little evidence is actually needed.

The only way to fulfil section B of the legislation is to actually do an EHCP needs assessment and do the statutory SALT and ED psych assessments. Plan-Do-Review cannot determine if a child needs an EHCP plan because it's not designed for that.

Also, for what it's worth 97% of parents win at EHCP related tribunals. I'm one of them 🤷🏽‍♀️. The experience has taught me that if a local authority insists on something time consuming, unless the thing they're asking is explicitly stipulated within legislation, it's a delay tactic to save them a few weeks of funds.

I am aware of the sen crisis, obviously as my children are SEN.

But my experience of various private schools sen provision vs state sen provision is what I am discussing here.
State sen provision is much better and the schools are extremely supportive where we are.
Appreciate there are levels of sen needs too and different areas and schools will have different resources.
Not really lucky me, as noone wants their child to sruggle every day and to be in and out of school meetings each week about behaviour issues and deal with therapists and sencos and your child escaping school becuase they cant cope.
But i guess lucky me that the school is putting in place what they can do, and its a lot more than we were offered at private.. which was nothing. We arent loaded either, we paid our last pennies as we thought amall class sizes would be the answer, which turned out it wasnt.

Just wanted to correct a possibly misleading impression I may have given:

I do have children who went through independent school. This was after they started at state and then it became apparent their needs were not being met (one autistic and one AuDHD).

I have also worked in the state system as a teacher for twenty years.

i was involved with many many schools working with them to improve practice as a specialist advisor.

in my county there is a send funding crisis. I’ve never seen a school that has psychologists and speech and language therapists on site (possibly special schools but I worked in mainstream).

I’ve seen many many schools in despair at the lack of funding for send needs and the battles parents need to go through to get any kind of support.

ultimately, indie or private it’s about the schools themselves and what they offer to your child.

It doesn't sound to me as though the op's very young child is anything other than normal, a bit lively and annoying maybe which he will outgrow. It's quite extreme to expect conformity at that age. He'll learn. It's not like he's being malicious, he's just mischievous.

If they are suggesting SALT, I would get started on that now as early intervention is quite important. It sounds like OT will also help.

Most independent schools charge extra for support and if there is good SEND provision it is standard to have it in school.

Put it this way OP, who did you think woud fund this sort of extra help at an independent school?
I do hope he gets the support he needs to flourish.

I would be getting an independent opinion. Your son sounds like a normal 5 year old to me, there’s a chance school just want more money out of you. You can pay for an independent assessment from an educational psychologist who will go into school to observe him, then provide suggestions to the school and yourself on the best way forward. Then if paying for additional support is needed, at least you can be confident about it.

Lots and lots of the parents using the state school will be working too! There will be other solutions such as wrap around, childminders and nannies. There will be other schools either private or state that it would be worth considering.

I don't think your 4 year old being excluded from his peers for displaying what sounds like very normal age and stage behaviour is a situation you should condone or continue with.

Be very wary of him being made to feel "naughty" or "bad" as this will potentially impact his self esteem and self efficacy and have long term impacts on his ability to learn. Other children in this class are being send the message that your ds is "in trouble" too and these "labels" can be socially damaging.

Clearly we only know a snippet here but please don't just accept that this is the right school for him and have a critical eye on their behaviour management policies and their understanding of normal developmental variance and associated reasonable expectations.

If the school is not able to meet the child's needs, move them. If spaces are limited, contact the LA to advise of the situation. If they are out of school for more than 15 days (does not have to be consecutive) then you can submit a section 19 request for the LA to provide an educational offer.

Education for children out of school because they don’t have a school place should be provided immediately. Although realistically it is highly unlikely to be from day 1.

Provision beginning as soon as it becomes clear 15 days will be missed (consecutive or cumulative. And don’t have to have already been missed) is for those unable to attend for reasons such as illness or the SEN or other reasons (PEX aside as that has its own rules) and it should begin by the sixth day of absence.

Our state school SEN experience was absolutely horrific. This was just one school and our own specific situation - but my son was treated appallingly. I am very glad that many on here have/had much more positive experiences than we did.

OP I would ask for more details on specifically which therapies are being offered, and why, and for what expected benefit. It sounds like the school needs to engage with you in more discussion than they have already, to help you make a decision.

State schools do vary enormously in what they offer - I moved my daughter to a big school which had the space and budgets to provide all sorts of support which the tiny school she was at just couldn't match. Big school also had its very own swimming pool!

I accept that many parents are stuck with one school and can't easily move, but my general point still stands - state school sen provision does vary enormously.

My advice is to pick the biggest school possible if you can. It will have more resources for everything, more experience of a wider group of children, often it will be used to train professionals like art therapists, it will often have sen units attached so there will be management understanding of additional needs etc. There will be loads of after school clubs and so on.

In my LA parents were often really keen on a one form Catholic school in an upmarket part of town but it didn't offer much other than being tiny. And tiny is often not what will work. Often that means a small catchment area, so limited diversity, teachers who are unused to difference, lack of resources, tiny pool of peers etc. And almost certainly no swimming pool!