My three year old boy causing havoc at preschool

[littleboy]

He’s not listening at circle time, disruptive during any lessons or activities where he just needs to sit and listen. He laughs at the teachers and just continues the behaviour.

they remove him if he’s too disruptive and ignoring them.

at home, he has a fair amount of tantrums and doesn’t listen particularly well. We use consequences like taking toys away, taking him out of the situation. We use a reward star jar for good behaviour and praise good behaviour as much as possible, rather than always focusing in on bad behaviour.

I deflect a lot, give options and pre-empt situations as to avoid fall outs / confrontations. I find that if I’m too confrontational with him, it just ends badly and he acts up even more. It’s almost as if he wants to go against what you want him to do, so it’s best to not use too many words sometimes and just get him to do it.

anyway, he’s definitely a hand full ! He turned 3 recently and is quite a clever little boy in many ways, but he does have days where he’s pretty unbearable and has a lot of tantrums. Clearly at preschool it’s also a strain on the teachers. Unless he’s fully engaged, he becomes disruptive.

any advice ?

Just to make the point to, a 3 year old boy is a totally different everything compared to a 3 year old girl in my general experience. He sounds fairly normal. Preschool with ‘formal learning’ for a 3 year old sounds a bit much and play based learning would probably suit him better. I have a 3 year old boy and no way will he sit and listen for any length of time but the nursery setting he’s in don’t expect it of all of them, there’s usually a set up to allow quiet play whilst others are sitting in a circle.

Just turned 3 is really young for lots of sitting/more formal "learning" - they should be playing, running around, climbing, doing sand and water type play. There's loads to learn at that age without trying to make them sit down as if they're at school already!

Not all children are like that though. My DS2 has always been very calm, preferring to sit down and observe objects. I never felt like a superior parent for that because it's just the way he is. I got DS1 who is exactly the opposite which proves my point that all children are different and there is not necessarily one type of learning structure that fits all.

We had one of those. Very energetic, very curious, and rather enjoyed having discovered her autonomy and her capacity to say no! Practiced it plenty... She grew out of it.

I do think that you shouldn't dismiss the possibility that your son is neurodiverse.

He may not be, but some of the behaviours you've described remind me of my son at a similar age, and he's 37 now (and diagnosed AuDHD).

You should start asking about assessments. My son did well at school and has a good job now. A diagnosis of ND is just that. All ND people are different from one another.

I got my own autism diagnosis in my 60s.

Of course, your little boy may be NT.
I think you should keep the possibility that he isn't in your mind and not be alarmed by that thought.

Op you say he is the youngest in his class. Are the other children mainly about to go into Reception? If so there is a huge difference in behaviour and expectations between a child just 3 & one who is 4 3/4.
Or is he with children who are all 3?

Sounds like my son. He got asked to leave his preschool at age 3. Hadn't had any problems in nursery but at 3 he hated the montessori preschool setting. They were not remotely accommodating of any undesirable 3 year old behaviour or willing to try to find a way through it. We changed his setting after 4 months and he was totally fine in a different environment. I will add he was diagnosed with autism at 3.5 years old. I suspect ADHD too. For all those who say don't run off to get a diagnosis because your child "behaves badly", we had lots of other signs so it was obvious to me from the age of 2. He never grew out of toddler tantrums, seemed emotionally immature, couldn't cope with too much noise/too many kids in a class. He has a lot of energy and really benefits being in a school with lots of space to move and time outdoors. Smaller class sizes made a huge difference. He's in mainstream school now and apparently behaves really well there, just a horror at home.
We have tried everything to improve the undesirable behaviour but nothing works, he just repeats it - it's been this way since he was maybe 2 and he's now 2.5. We have seen a child psychologist on a regular basis, reward charts, time out, toy removal, positive praise etc.....nothing changes. To outsiders we look like shit parents with a badly behaved child but over time I've learnt not to let other people's opinions bother me.

He sounds like my now 7yo youngest, who has just been diagnosed with ASD and ADHD. He has a PDA profile - very demand avoidant and disruptive.
I moved him from a quite structured nursery to a small forest school type one and he was so much happier. In hindsight I should also have deferred him starting school.

We only got his diagnosis age 6 but school quickly picked up on things and put in lots of support - thrive, an OT etc.

edited to add - with a demand avoidant child (which me may be) punishments, consequences etc do not work. They really don’t. Worth reading up on it and trying a few things.

Summer born? Id consider deferring hom a year

An excellent description of what a pre-school session should be like and how such activities should be structured to inform staff on how each child is developing and what next steps are required.

I would suspect adhd or asd. His behaviour sounds very similar to both of my children. My eldest has recently been diagnosed at 10 eith ASD/ADHD & and the other is on the neuropathway

Maybe I am going a different direction, but…
I have a now 4 years old that played up quite a bit during his 3rd year. He was never regarded as really disruptive at nursery (however they noted that his ability to participate at circle time wasn’t great, but improved). Although I see a lot of what you said, at home at time it’s been tough with tantrums and not getting it his way and need for independence overstepping safety. I have tried the approach you described with mixed results. I then changed quite a bit my approach. I stopped trying to avoid situations and confrontation. I let it run with full blown tantrums (sometimes incontollable for a good 20 minutes), stayed there with him but I had to teach him how to go through it, rather than avoiding.
what I thought is, first, in life he won’t find people walking around his moods and bad manners. He need to learn to deal with it now with me, rather than going out unprepared. Secondly, he needs to test the ground and see that in some way (never ever physically) I am stronger than his big emotions.
I have to say that I have seen a bi big improvement. Obviously I have been talking to him about emotions, set boundaries, used timers and consequences, warnings and all the lot. But I took a bit more ownership and sometimes I said, sorry you don’t have a choice, it’s mummy/daddy choice. And overall I think it reassured him.

Just because a 3 year old boy is lively it doesn't automatically mean he has ADHD! It's NORMAL toddler behaviour.What isn't normal is the expectations of making toddlers sit and listen in structured 'lessons' 🤨

Preschool need to plan to his needs at this age, not the other way around.

Not sitting at age 3 is not a flag for ADHD otherwise hundreds if children would be labelled. ( I get so fed up of every answer for a child who breathes in the wrong place being an internet diagnosis of ADHD/ASD from one comment on here)

I'm an old hand ( and I'm going to sound like one) - 35 years in education including specialising in EY - in my day ( told you how I was going to sound😂) the guideline we were given was to expect a child to sit and listen for a minute for every year of their age. He is 3, can he sit for 3 minutes?

( I do wonder if expecting more is because we are used to children sitting with a screen for much longer scewing realistic expectations).

it interesting that you describe him as articulate and very observant, keen to get adult attention from you, notices lots, but then wont sit for an adult led activity in Nursery. I wonder why this is. Children like this usually love circle activities where they find out more about the world and get to share interesting conversations.

sounds like unreasonable expectations of a 3 year old.

many 4 year olds struggle with circle time in reception.

When my children were in pre school there was no circle time at all - they arried into free play set up, chose what they did - my son always headed straight outside!! and just played out the entire time - I think they came in for a short story at the end.

I have no idea! It doesn’t make sense to me either. Perhaps because in circle time, the attention isn’t solely on him so he’s bored?

obviously all children don't climb a clear curve of steaday 'development' towards adult expectations.

He may be neurodiverse (signs do appear at this age) - and he may just be a highly physical energetic child who needs a lot of time running, climbing and jumping.

our expectations of small children in the UK are absolutely ludicrous in many ways. 'sitting' isn't a natural child activity at all. There is no reason it should be - it's not what children evolved to do and is part of a modern formal approach to childhood learning that is at odds with natural development.

@littleboy hes just like my son at the same age.

He had hearing loss, corrected though an operation.

That helped but didn’t ‘fix’ everything.

He’s older now and still bright and curious. Hes articulate and interested in lots of things. When he’s bored he gets distracted… just as he did when he was little. But now he can manage that himself.

Your little boy sounds wonderful…

Try not to worry. He’s still so tiny.

I‘m not sure my DS2 would have coped well with a lot of sitting down and listening time at that age - he was at a nursery rather than pre-school though, and from what I can gather from parents of children at a school- based pre-school there does seem to be more of this type of activity there than there was at my son’s nursery. By the time my DS had to do this he was well past 4.

Try playing some games at home as a family where he has to follow the rules, wait, take turns. Be fair and play the game properly without letting him win (unless he does genuinely win of course) and see how he reacts to it. Orchard toys will have some suitable and affordable games.

I also let my boy have tantrums. It’s impossible to avoid all of them, but I pick my battles. If I can work around it by avoiding him seeing the Amazon box that doesn’t contain a present for him, then I will- sometimes. Other times he just has do deal with it.

I know the world won’t revolve around him and his tantrums - and he needs to learn. But this will come naturally as his brain develops and he matures. It won’t come from me being a hard arse and trying to break him down ( I know that’s not what you’re saying btw ).

my DD had endless tantrums too. But she’s 5 now and it’s much easier now. She just developed and matured, with my support. I also had some bad reports about her behaviour when she was 2-3. She drove me nuts, always hiding in the soft play when we needed to leave- I don’t know how many times I had to drag her out screaming. I tried everything. It just needed time.

Sounds very typical of ADHD. Something to bear in mind. If he has got ADHD, the sooner he can get the right treatment and support; the better.

DD was very similar at that age. In Year 1 she was diagnosed with autism, and it was a struggle all through the Infants. I felt very alone. But she's just - very slowly - grown out of it and now she's doing her GSCEs (no special arrangements) and actually planning to be a teacher herself. I understand what those with early years knowledge are saying about the structure of the pre-school day but it all presumes that children mature at the sane rate, and clearly they don't.

Sorry if I came across as harsh or patronising, it wasn’t my intent. I have been worried myself about ADHD, while I also know that the prefrontal cortex is not mature enough to deal with situations and emotions as adults or older children.
I am not saying that this would work with everyone or with neurodivergent individuals.
For example, I know that tiredness is a big trigger for my DS, so I would try to be more playful and let go more when I know he’s tired and that he can’t control himself. But in certain occasions and situations I raised my bar.
i used to be a nanny before my son, but for obvious reasons I never really behaved like a nanny with him, but I find that brushing off some of the skills I used to have has been helpful. Like explaining what is going to happen step by step, especially during transition time (bedtime, going out etc) and if it’s kicking me playfully, I would warn him that I will move to the chair l, which upsets him, but I will do it. Then I am open for a cuddle and move on, but…
any, I am not judging wathsoever, I know it’s though and everyone knows their own children and what works best for them!