My three year old boy causing havoc at preschool

[littleboy]

He’s not listening at circle time, disruptive during any lessons or activities where he just needs to sit and listen. He laughs at the teachers and just continues the behaviour.

they remove him if he’s too disruptive and ignoring them.

at home, he has a fair amount of tantrums and doesn’t listen particularly well. We use consequences like taking toys away, taking him out of the situation. We use a reward star jar for good behaviour and praise good behaviour as much as possible, rather than always focusing in on bad behaviour.

I deflect a lot, give options and pre-empt situations as to avoid fall outs / confrontations. I find that if I’m too confrontational with him, it just ends badly and he acts up even more. It’s almost as if he wants to go against what you want him to do, so it’s best to not use too many words sometimes and just get him to do it.

anyway, he’s definitely a hand full ! He turned 3 recently and is quite a clever little boy in many ways, but he does have days where he’s pretty unbearable and has a lot of tantrums. Clearly at preschool it’s also a strain on the teachers. Unless he’s fully engaged, he becomes disruptive.

any advice ?

My ds was like this, he was 3 in October and started preschool in the January, he wouldn’t listen, would not sit at circle time or do any lessons! The pre school were amazing with him, they guided him through activities but let him do lots of what he wanted (otherwise he would upend the room!) They constantly told me he was really clever - I was just constantly mortified at his behaviour! Then He totally changed when he was 4 and became a model student - with us just being consistent - I couldn’t really say we did anything to cause the change. He was diagnosed with dyspraxia when he was 8 but it’s never held him back, he’s just got all 8/9s in his GCSE mocks and he’s on an Oxford pathway!

@littleboy I was going to say that he's like mine was at that age. He's autistic. But unlike yours he was slow with speech and is not very bright. So not like yours. Some children are very active and are not ready to sit down and listen long time. In Scandinavia they don't start school before 6/7 years old. Before that it's preschool where they do learn things but by playing/manipulation. Most of the time are spent outside and when it's time for calm activities the children can decide between different activities. Sounds like your child would love it there.

@Whistlingformysupperof course I turn to him and tell him it’s unacceptable. I also told him that he won’t be getting any chocolate after dinner this evening, which he really loves. I’m not a push over, I just know what works for my child.

fighting every battle does not work on him, there is no point and it will lead to a negative relationship and low self esteem. I pick my battles with him and I’m definitely not soft. I just know my child and it just won’t work if I’m constantly on his back. I deflect / avoid situations and triggers, otherwise it would be hell. I won’t ’ break him ‘ by being confrontational at every opportunity. Not all kids work like this.

No it’s not, at 3 a neurotypical kid who is not in any way delayed by either ND or a damaging home environment should be able to sit for a story. We had a battle with my autistic DSS over it at that age but he was clearly very developmentally delayed and we even managed to get him sat reading books with his siblings at bedtime with some effort. Honestly the shockingly low expectations of pre-school children are the reason why so many are entering school unable to turn the pages of a book.

It sounds to me like your child is neurodiverse unless you’re not being entirely honest and he really does get his own way all the time at home, in which case he will be a handful at nursery because they expect him to follow rules.

Kindly. Right now you do not need to worry about his self esteem.... If anything he sounds overconfident and cocky to be speaking back to adults the way he is.
Not every telling off is going to trash your child's self esteem.

This could have been me writing this.

My son was diagnosed with autism aged 3.

He did have a speech delay though, although fully understands language.

He will be put onto the adhd pathway though ASAP because he was no different when starting school, can't sit still, can't help but give in to impulsive decisions and laughs as a coping mechanism, this is known as fawning, and isn't an indication that they necessarily see their behaviour as negative, they're just trying to prevent a negative reaction from care givers.

He's currently resitting reception while his peers moved up to year 1.

Some things that did help us though were: school got the social communication and interaction team out to work out a slightly alternative schedule where he could access some therapies that speech and language recommended. Things like attention autism, which can and should be done in a group which can include neurotypical peers, music therapy which has helped focus on turn taking and waiting as well as following adult led instructions, but in my sons case it's very apparent he is still very far behind although exceptionally smart, witty, and understimulated.

My understanding is that in some places you may need a diagnosis to access these, but in others you don't and your schools senco should be able to reach out for these interventions as it should be based on need, not diagnosis.

I would ask without delay if they have considered these things.

I'm all for watchful waiting usually especially if you're unsure if your child's behaviour is due to neurodivergence or otherwise but getting an EHCP may become essential to your child accessing school and it is an arduous and lengthy process even without rejections that you have to appeal, and your son is already 3, and these interventions are wonderful for assessing need in order to get an EHCP.

It could be completely normal behaviour from your child but if it is very different from his peers and he is an outlier then the preschool probably need to do more documenting, just in case he does need assistance further down the line.

Are you under the impression that in Scandinavian nurseries they don't read stories to children in a group 😂

Circle time is normal for 3 year olds, it's part of the daily routine for a reason and they are expected to sit and focus for a few minutes. The preschool curriculum is designed for preschool children and is developmentally appropriate. That said I agree with you, he is just 3 and it's not cause for panic or labels.

It is young but I do think it’s something I’d be keeping a close eye on going forward. At the point you’re having to do the things you mention to avoid tantrums at home I do think for me alarm bells would be starting to ring about possible additional needs, mainly because a nursery/school environment isn’t going to be able to avoid triggers, pick battles, deflect etc and so being conscious of that I’d be trying to figure out what COULD work in those environments or whether those environments will work for my child/with what adaptations. No definitive answers at age 3 of course but it would absolutely be on my “radar” as such.

He’s 3 , I don’t think this is abnormal. I taught year 1 and some were like that and , in my opinion , there were no needs they were just children. They push boundaries .

Quite shocked a pre school is going in with such negative actions as a response - he’s getting attention from that , doesn’t matter that it’s negative attention , it’s still attention. ‘Sitting still’ activities shouldn’t really be something with a massive importance on it at that age . Children learn by exploring .

Keep doing what you are doing - reward systems etc. yes it COULD be something more ( my son is autistic and could not sit still at nursery but his was constant - I mean constantly on the move - and climbing on tables etc ) but it also could - and more likely be just his age .

he sounds very much like my youngest boy at 3, although at preschool he got to the stage where he would just switch off. The temper tantrums were awful and I tried everything known to man to deal with them. He was very loving and affectionate but got frustrated very easily and lost his rag. At 6 he was diagnosed with dyspraxia. He is highly intelligent with an impressive memory and although never diagnosed we both think he is on the autistic spectrum.
he is in his 40s now, good job, married with children,

get him to a child psychologist and have him tested. the sooner you know the sooner both you and the school will be able to develop a management plan for his behaviour.

I agree. Negative attention is attention and that’s what he really craves. Usually when he’s acting up at home, it’s also because he needs more attention. I’m not sure if the need for attention is a symptom of anything or just normal for that age.

he just wants us to always play with him / get him to do chores / be 100 percent engaged with him. He’s able to play on his own for a bit, but not long. I think that’s quite normal for that age.

He sounds a bit oppositional. I find some nurseries are more authoritarian than others and you recognise that doesn’t work for him. He will probably get better over time and they definitely aren’t going to diagnose a 3 year old with ADHD. I’d find a more flexible nursery.

Yes I think it’s completely normal. My own son was like it as a young child ( not my autistic son ) and I began to just ignore anything negative and praise positive really OTT. It’s my go to behaviour management in school too .

In terms of autism in particular I would say the need to always be engaged with him and playing with him is a sign that it’s not autism. In regard to my son ( and students I teach as I am an SEN teacher now ) they don’t tend to want that attention but the negative behaviour they do want attention for but it’s usually for a need - unable to communicate , unable to regulate , sensory overload etc .

If it was destructive behaviour in the form of just running wild ( sorry not a nice phrase ) , climbing , pulling things etc with no way to distract him, screaming , crying etc I would say yes keep an eye on it - but if it’s just being a little terror , wanting to play and giggling because he’s being ‘chased’ or because he’s getting that attention then I wouldn’t. SEN children don’t typically do it because it’s fun , it’s the opposite.

but as a disclaimer I will add - I’m not an expert and every child or young person with any form of SEN can act completely different to any stereotypes

I back this - you say he likes to do chores , be engaged etc . There are nurseries that do base their curriculum on being led by the child , by them exploring etc. Personally , I think this is fantastic and the best form of education and I believe children should get longer in this setting. Pre schools and nurseries are becoming more like schools and more authoritarian and this absolutely doesn’t work for all children.

Have a look at nurseries that are Montessori based .

@Whatthewhatthewhatyhewhen he’s doing chores, he is so happy and doesn’t misbehave at all. He absolutely loves it.

he loves the responsibly of it all. He’s really interested in house stuff and pays attention to all the stuff we do in the house and garden. He notices stuff, like if we forget to put on the extractor fan when we cook something. Or if we put something in the wrong place. I guess he just looks up to us and wants to do what we do, which is a lot of house stuff !

Sounds similar to DS(6) when he was 3. It later escalated to impulsive and sometimes aggressive behaviours. I found we had huge success when I shifted attention away from negative behaviours and instead focused on verbalising positive or neutral things. Sticker charts and punishments (like taking away toys) didn't work for us at all, just seemed to make the tantrums a whole lot worse. But if I took a moment to notice (out loud) when he was being calm and still, or helpful, or kind to his sister or other things like this I very quickly saw a lot more of those behaviours and less of the disruptive stuff. Felt weird and kinda patronising at the time but it worked! Then once the moment had passed and everything was calm again I'd bring up what happened and we'd come up with other options of how he could (/should!) have behaved. Ignoring the bad behaviour (when it isn't hurting anyone) is a parenting hack as old as time. I just read a fab book called Hunter, Gather, Parent which went into it in detail, was an interesting read!

Also it's hard to sit still! My son is at the end of year 1 now and they still struggle to sit still sometimes. Would a fidget t-shirt or similar work? Less likely to get lost than a toy.

At the time I found these to be really helpful resources:

Calmer, Happier, Easier Parenting - book/audiobook
How to Talk so Little Kids Will Listen - book/audiobook
Kindminds_smarthearts on socials

Even if it is that he's under-stimulated and therefore acting up, these books have a good number of idea on how to work with your child and be on their team about how they should be behaving and how to work through these feelings and impulses in a more acceptable way.

It's all so personal though, I've tried several of the same techniques with DD and she doesn't react in the same way in the slightest 😂 instead I'm treated to an eye roll and a frustrated grunt! With her going back afterwards and having her toys act out even worse than she did and have her pretending to be the mummy and keeping them on track seems to work, which is also like a free therapy session for mum ! Something very enjoyable about watching her try and think what to do when teddy is throwing a wobbler outside our pretend shop!

If you can, reduce his nursery school hours and spend more time with him. His behaviour indicates high levels of stress. He needs Mummy time. He needs to learn how to regulate his emotions with the safety net of Mum nearby to help him sooth himself when he gets overwrought.

One of my 7 year old girls has severe combined ADHD and her challenging behaviour at Preschool is the stuff of legends. 🤦🏼‍♀️
The staff, however, were amazing and a lot of additional support was put in place for her.
People who say 3 is too young to tell clearly haven't met at child like mine. 😅

Activities are not lessons. Do you work in a pre-school? What you’ve described is not my experience of them.

She did in the second line of her post.

It's really not. I have a 3.5 year old and he's been doing circle time and story time since September with no problems. It's so easy to underestimate what small children are capable of.

He sounds a lot like my neighbour’s little boy @littleboy - he’s recently turned 4 and he seems to have calmed a lot in the past 12 months.
I think rewards, boundaries, attention for good things even going up to him whilst he’s playing quietly and joining in, and less attention for tantrums is the way forward… Sounds like you’ve got it! My neighbours bought a trampoline too and he spends ALOT of time on it with one of his parents getting rid of his energy!!

There are less time spent sitting down and for those who need to move can go into another room. Yes, even during story time. I have got a friend who is a preschool teacher over there and you encourage children to sit and listen to the story by making them participate but you don't force them. And a child who can't sit still is not viewed as "disruptive"- he just needs to move and is allowed to do so in the play room used for gymnastics. Children develop very differently.

My eldest who is now 31 (so trust me you will get through this) was EXACTLY like your little boy! You could be describing him! We tried everything, I cried buckets, felt like a failure, and got nothing but bad mother disapproving stares from teachers/parents etc etc
Years later he was finally diagnosed with ADD Inattentive type and everything fell into place - then I felt guilty all over again!
Times are different now and it’s much more openly talked about, there’s more help etc so please please speak to your GP or his pre school about being tested x
He might be too young and you might need to wait until he’s in school but look up coping mechanisms and get his teachers on board too x
They do try and hold off till they’re a little older in case it is just a phase etc so don’t be disheartened if they suggest waiting xx 😘