Loud Child in Church

[Difficile]

We go to a child friendly Church, with lots of families including Ben and his four children. Three of the four go into kid's groups, but the youngest (2), refuses to leave her Dad and wants to stay in the service.

Fine.

Except, Ben then doesn't parent his daughter, Abby, he leaves her to (usually female) friends in the congregation to cope with. Last time he left Abby with her godmother, Jane, who is lovely, but has 3 small children of her own, including twins (3) and a small baby, and her husband took all their kids to the Sunday School, including the baby, to give her a break for an hour.

Abby is very boisterous, loud, and she wants to be played with throughout the service. Jane tried her best to keep Abby quiet, but Ben doesn't bring anything with him to entertain her or feed her (I have also looked after her one week), and try as she might to tell Abby to be quiet it made absolutely no difference.

Jane was clearly embarrassed and flustered, but Ben seemed to be studiously ignoring the fact that Abby was disrupting half the Church. Jane is very quiet and won't say anything about this herself, but she mentioned to me that she felt guilty and upset after last week as she knew how loud Abby had been.

WIBU to say something to Ben this week about essentially using friends as free childcare, and ask that he takes Abby out when she's making too much noise?

Sorry - didn’t address the op. Yes I think better to encourage Jane to drop the rope and let him take care of his own 2 year old. I would also be inclined to do a smiley gentle ‘shhh’ every time she’s too loud. I think you’ve earned enough time around her to do that occasionally.

Its not for you to speak for the other females and ask that Ben not palm Abby off to them. They need to speak up for themselves, as should you if you are put in that position.
Nothing wrong with you suggesting he take her out if she’s being overly disruptive. You will probably only have to do this once for him to get the message. Also nothing wrong with suggesting he bring some quiet toys and snacks.
I do have sympathy for the man, it sounds like he is struggling and I can understand the temptation to let others take over if they appear willing.

You absolutely can tell her to be quiet if you are looking after her! If Ben doesn't like it, he can look after her himself. You can suggest that a toy box and snacks be provided for entertainment perhaps, or that Ben escorts her to kids church for a few weeks until she settles in. Ideally someone with some authority would have a word, and work out a solution, but if nobody has noticed you need to bring it to their attention.

When I was coming to church, usually quite late, with (just 1) small child, this was one of the few things that kept me able to do it:

Dear parents with young children in church – Deseret News

If you would like live music in 10 years' time, there are a few school concerts and recorder recitals that are worth enduring. If you would like pews to have people in them in 10 years time, then seeing more of a whole picture of a child (as much as any other person who comes through the doors, and who keeps coming) and how they are learning what church is like, and what behaviours might change within it, and what small moments of progress are happening, is worth wondering about. She won't be 2 forever, and one day, I think she will be much more curious about the step to children's church.

My thoughts as well... She can't be that much of a cling-on if she's happy to be bounced between a number of different women each week.

2 is still very, very little OP. At worst, this is a temporary problem.

I'm not saying it's wrong that Abby stays in the service, and we all help as much as we can, but we also can't tell Abby off or request that she's quiet in the same way a parent can, and whilst it is advertised as a child friendly service, we (I also have 2 young children) are all being encouraged to send our children to the appropriate groups so we don't disturb everyone.

It's not really child friendly if you mean "ship the children off elsewhere"

And you can tell her off. It's a community. You all know her My mother is well known to be the one the kids will look at if they're being naughty to see if she's about to tell them off for it. They will also joke with her and often draw her pictures and things too. Its a respect thing.

If child friendly there is usually playful children and the church absolutely welcomes this, where parents are not on edge etc.

However for this Mum she may need a few minutes to herself and I am sure welcomes this rare and brief opportunity.

Usually churches have puzzles, colouring books, pens etc for children to use in the church during services. You could ask this to the church community or suggest to the Dad they can be found over there (show him, or even get it out ready), to give this mum some time to reflect. Usually a member of the church community will get it ready if you ask them if you’re not sure.

Catholics are so famously tolerant that women are banned from being the top manager in their organisation.

Can't the church buy a few small toys, paper and pens and some rice cakes/raisins for the toddlers? Put them to the side of the service and tell parents to sit with their kids? Or have a dedicated person to mind the toddlers who is able to manage them? Maybe put on an early service for parents with kids so it's not disrupting everyone else?

Yes, I'd judge parents poorly if they pass on harmful or offensive cultures, behaviours etc. Mysogynistic and homophobic religious beliefs would be just one of them.

Do you not think parents have a duty to bring up children well?

I think parents have a duty to bring kids up to be tolerant of others beliefs even if they don't align with their own
But this is what this thread is about.

I think parents have a duty to bring kids up to treat people as equals, regardless of sex, race, sexuality etc. I'm not aware that any of the major religions role model that behaviour, and hence they are inappropriate for children.

In your opnion but again that,s not what this thread is about .

People seem to think ‘child friendly’ is the same as ‘child indulgent’.

YANBU OP. Other people are there too and one child shouldn’t dominate half of the church.

Poor Ben it sounds like he's had a very tough time. 2 is so young to be without your mum I'm not surprised the little one is so attached. I wonder if he has appropriate support. I have a brother in a similar situation and it's damn hard!

This is what I'm confused about. If he is still sitting with Abby, how is she being palmed off on other people? Surely he's just sitting next to people he knows Abby knows or is comfortable around rather than sitting next to strangers? And these people voluntarily interact with Abby? How is that his fault? Yes he should tell her to be quiet or take her out if she's causing too much fuss, but I don't see how he's palming his daughter off on other women

It has many faults as all religions do however my religious upbringing shaped me. I am very tolerant and accepting person. People bashing others who are religious are as bad as what they are hating. It’s a very personal thing. Many people don’t personally agree with parents swearing in front of children, bringing them up vegan or leaving them in childcare full time from a few months old however it’s none of anyone’s business and it’s their choice, the same as it’s other parents choices to take their children to church!

I don't get it either Jane who seems to engage with her is also her godmother.

So it's not like she is just some random she too is probably grieving the Mum and is a bit shell shocked at what has happened.

Two, no mum, is potentially in nursery 5 days a week, and wants to cling to Dad when she can.

Honestly the Op needs to stay out of it. If she opens her mouth then it's easily both Ben and Jane who'll feel unwelcome in the church and two families who will leave.
Churches need the next generation or theyll be no church.

I think what one person perceives as “well” is very different from another and I don’t think an atheist upbringing is inherently superior to a religious one. You seem very prescriptive and to believe your opinion trumps others in a way that I personally would not want to see become the norm.

“Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” Jesus didn't say anything about them being quiet.

Look to your Christian values for guidance.

Have you watched ‘Conclave’?!
Apparently, if they say they are a man, they can! 😂

We go to a large church with a small congregation mainly elderly. I do take snacks and books etc for my 2 year old. One week he just wouldn’t sit still (there is no youth group or Sunday school etc) and all he wanted to do was run round the church. I tried to stop him but he’s at an age ! The vicar announced - if the child wants to run, let him, you just sit down mum. So I did. Once it wasn’t a game, he came back for his snacks. I’m always embarrassed at his antics (with a veteran dad, his shouting in the minute silence was another epic fail) - however the members of the congregation have always been reassuring. A - we’ve been there / don’t worry about it vibe.

I do understand it is a different situation if he isn’t bringing toys or snacks etc. but perhaps that is something the church could look at? The first time I took my son to church he was given some crayons and colouring sheets by the church wardens? Something constructive rather than critical maybe? Something not aimed at one person? If you already have youth groups putting together some sort of welcome to church pack might be easy?

If you're worried about homophobic and misogynistic religious views, Christians are not the top religion to go after

It almost sounds like the poor guy is overwhelmed with 4 kids and trying to get 4 of them out the door on a Sunday morning is probably no mean feat.
Trying to remember snacks and stuff is probably a step too far for him .

There is also a thing he expects the LO to sit and listen which is just never going to happen. Not everyone agrees with using snack to releave boredom. But maybe a book or colouring stuff wouldn't go a miss.

I do wonder what they did before this wife passed away.

There is big difference between child tolerant and a child being allows to be disruptive.