Loud Child in Church

[Difficile]

We go to a child friendly Church, with lots of families including Ben and his four children. Three of the four go into kid's groups, but the youngest (2), refuses to leave her Dad and wants to stay in the service.

Fine.

Except, Ben then doesn't parent his daughter, Abby, he leaves her to (usually female) friends in the congregation to cope with. Last time he left Abby with her godmother, Jane, who is lovely, but has 3 small children of her own, including twins (3) and a small baby, and her husband took all their kids to the Sunday School, including the baby, to give her a break for an hour.

Abby is very boisterous, loud, and she wants to be played with throughout the service. Jane tried her best to keep Abby quiet, but Ben doesn't bring anything with him to entertain her or feed her (I have also looked after her one week), and try as she might to tell Abby to be quiet it made absolutely no difference.

Jane was clearly embarrassed and flustered, but Ben seemed to be studiously ignoring the fact that Abby was disrupting half the Church. Jane is very quiet and won't say anything about this herself, but she mentioned to me that she felt guilty and upset after last week as she knew how loud Abby had been.

WIBU to say something to Ben this week about essentially using friends as free childcare, and ask that he takes Abby out when she's making too much noise?

Aged 2 her noise is expected. Children should be allowed to be children, church is for everyone, so you are unreasonable to complain about children's noise.
Ben sounds awful and needs being told to stop being a waste of space. Or may be just say he needs to parent his child and not expect women to do it for him.

We have a box with drawstring bags containing quiet toys. Small wire bead frames are also good - no pieces to lose - and board books. We also have a small play area and colouring books and crayons and wordsearch for older children

If I were Jane I would be sitting away from Ben..

Did you hear re your flexible working request Op?!

So a widower?

Op I would be actively trying to help this man as much as possible. 4 young kids, alone and I’m going to take a punt that his wife died

This if its a family service there is no issue or shouldn't be

No, this thread is about intolerant people. Adults.

The very idea of the Op telling this chap not to rely on his friends is so unbelievable that I’m struggling to get my head around anyone thinking this is remotely reasonable

Ben sounds like he has 4 very young children and I think a widower “no mum on the scene”

Isn't there an adjacent cry chapel he can take her into?

Oh my gosh so true. Our church has tried desperately to welcome families like all churches they are losing congregations. Whenever we attend we are made to feel extremely welcome and the children are warmly welcomed. Its exactly as a family worship should be. Plenty of other services for people to attend quieter services

Tbh our church takes them from 1 years old. My DC was fine being left at 18 months at Sunday school and there’s another child just over 12 months who is left as well. They come and get us if children don’t settle (would say it happens 1:6 weeks).
Thats because they are there regularly and know the helpers etc.

Yes, he is taking the michael - when my two were of at Church, one would always play up, so lots of colouring books and other things were brought there and play groups were utilised.
During an all age service, if one was playing up completely I would take that one out of the service.
There is a difference between 'minding' and child care.

Agree!!

Are there any rooms at the back of the church that could be set up with toys and video/audio stream of the service that parents could go in (at least during sermon) with children who are too young for the kids groups or who don't want to go? Limits the noise disturbance whilst enabling parents to still be part of the service.

Our church service starts with a welcome that highlights the children's corner which is full of toys and books, and specifically says "please do not worry about any noise your children may make, we each come to God in our own way"

If there's conversation about this later during after service coffee, the vicar will remind everyone that it is much more important that children and parents think of church as a place of welcome, rather than a place of being constantly told to shut up and stop being who they are. Grownups who aren't capable of screening out the noise are very welcome to attend the 8am or 6:30pm services instead.

You would be interfering. It’s really none of your business.

The vicar and wardens aren't fucking psychic

They can't tell if Jane's OK with it or not

I'm quite sure the vicar probably knows what's going on.

He's on his own with 4 kids, she probably conducted the wife's funeral and knows the man needs to be able to lean on his faith.

Ops being a nosy busybody who should find a different part of the church to sit in.

What a sad thread. Single parent of several small dc is insufficiently attentive to his toddler because he wants to pay attention to the service and people are calling him names. He may not have the headspace to preemptively bring toys and snacks.

There is a problem. It isn’t just his problem, it’s a community problem. Suggest he bring toys and snacks to make it easier for her. Ask the wardens about a designated area with toys where he can sit with her. If Jane doesn’t sit there, she won’t need to watch any dc. Ask whether a rota of volunteers can keep an eye on the area and support the parents and tots there.

Being as I know vicars. They are too busy, ya know, leading the service and preaching the sermon to see if Jane is uncomfortable because she's been given her Godchild to watch or if Ethel is annoyed because the advertised family friendly service has children in it instead of going to the 8am quiet service

They might be well aware of Ben's situation but that doesn't make them aware of the problems in the service

Are there any people who might be prepared to befriend the 2 year old and sit with her and her dad in church to help him and take the pressure off Jane etc etc

It seems to me the biggest problem is that Jane is feeling overwhelmed. Given her own situation with little twins and a baby, she probably shouldn't be the one trying to help.

It might be nice if some others stepped in to lend a hand. (Maybe even some men?) And I don't think it would be amiss for someone to take him aside and say that they think Jane is a bit overwhelmed and perhaps he needs to pack a snack and a quiet toy for the little one. That could be you, OP, or the vicar.

It would not be at all bad for the church to have some quiet toys available however, they will continue to be useful.

As harsh as it sounds, children's church IS the provision that the church makes for children when it isn't an all age service. If Abbey doesn't want to go out during the service, Ben needs to go to groups with her. If he doesn't want to do that HE needs to be parenting her to ensure she is quiet. I've done it. From when our son was about 6-9 months till he was about 3, children's church, even with the best leaders, needed one of his parents there too. Now, occasionally I have been a special adult for my little goddaughter, who, now 5 has just started managed the whole of children's church with her sister and no special adult.

It's tough, it's also really tantalising when there are lovely people who want to look after your kids and your kids don't want to be looked after! However it's life. Are there other people in the congregation who might be a special adult some weeks? Someone, like Jane, who she would go out with, instead of them trying to keep in with Ben? Is there anyone who Ben and the kids see during the week, so that Abbey got to have another special adult? I think one problem with kids' church is that a week is a long time for a small child. Also the children's church leaders won't be the same every week, which is 100% right in loads of ways, but I think it's really difficult for kids.

When you think how many struggle with nursery or school at first, when the go several days a week, if not 5, with the same people every time, it's really unsurprising that they are weary about going to a group they go to just once a week, which may have different adults each week. (Not that I am saying volunteers leading kids' groups should be made to do it each week, but if you are little and you see an adult once every 2-3-4 weeks, it's really likely that it might be a year or two before you are settled with that person.)

I'd say this depends on the vicar and size of congregation. My parents are both vicars and could tell you exactly what is going on with all members of their congregation in a service. But we are in a small community, so it's only maybe 30-40 people. In a larger congregation, I agree that'd be difficult - and very much dependent on the vicar.

With regard to OP's post, if the church doesn't already have a play area/activities/books set up for young ones, this might be a good idea. It sounds like Ben might be a little overwhelmed by everything. My friends and I, when we all had young ones, would automatically take over with each others as and when needed - there was no need for anyone to ask; it was an automatic response.

We have a congregation of around 30 too. And the vicar couldn't tell you if Jane was uncomfortable because they have to lead the service. They will notice if someone suddenly leaves etc, if they are crying but if someone is just uncomfortable then it's not obvious and they will always say to please speak to them or the wardens about problems.

We actually had it happen where an elderly member of the congregation had said something to a child which had caused problems. The parent messaged the vicar after, who had no knowledge because it wasn't obvious during the service

I've already said they could suggest having toys etc