Reasonable or grabby neighbours?

[Housen]

There’s a no-man’s land back passage running behind three terrace houses (1,3,5). According to land registry this is owned by no one (unregistered land). We own no. 1 (recently bought) our neighbours own 3 and 5 (yes they own 2 houses!) they have one 15 yr old kid.

Neighbours have put a locked gate on the passage and claimed it as their own. They store their bins and bikes back there- including in the space behind our garden.
We asked if we could store our bins there too - there’s space for at least 2 more bins without blocking the way. (our garden is much smaller than theirs and we have three small kids, 1-5 years. the bins in our garden take up a load of space where we’d love to put a playhouse).

Neighbours have said no. They have said since they’ve been using this passage as theirs only for years (because they put a locked gate on it and our house was occupied by lodgers who never bothered to challenge this) , it’s now legally their property and we have no right of access and they are not willing to share.

Do we have any leg to stand on here? I’m guessing not, but thought I’d consult the collective wisdom of mumsnet..

We live in England.

Also AIBU for thinking our neighbours are absolute a*holes? We’ve had friendly relations until now.

Contact land registry to verify facts then maybe a surveyor and solicitor letter to follow up it’s not there’s and they have no right to refuse you access.

I hope it works out for you OP, and the suggestion of checking google maps history is a good one.

Anyway, all this talk of back passages is making me think of my colonoscopy in two weeks time! 😊

I'm guessing they've misunderstood the concept of easements

Ahahaha. Sorry to trigger that association 😝. Hope it goes well for you x

Download their title deeds from the land registry and see what it says on there, just to be sure. It’s a couple of pounds - you can download anyone’s.

I can’t believe this wasn’t mentioned on either the property information forms or by your conveyancer though.

Waiting patiently for the mandatory diagram......

Council planning department should do. When were the homes originally built?

Prior Town and Country Planning Act 1947?

Check that it is actually no man’s land. We had a similar issue years ago where on our deeds we owned the wrap around from the end of terrace to our back garden. The end of terrace said it was no man’s land on their deeds I don’t think it showed as common area on their deeds but was clearly ours on ours.

If it's a terrace then surely it would be a service lane for fire engines for example to gain access to the back of the properties if needed?

this is a useful site for asking for advice www.gardenlaw.co.uk/phpBB2/index.php

This comes under don't give in to bullies..

Quick point not sure of anyone has mentioned, unregistered isn’t the same as unowned. There may be a successor in title of the original developer who may be able to help. Older titles aren’t always registered.

I second going through local councillors! Ours are very action oriented!

These passageways are generally quite narrow, typically no more than 1.5 - 2m wide.

i had a similar situation and the alleyway wasn’t just access for the neighbours, but also had the mains sewage pipe running under the passageway. Check if there are utilities under the area. If there are, then they have a right of access too, and the land can’t be privately owned unless it’s owned by all the properties with equal access.

Most people on mumsnet have little idea of the law on anything. Check any insurance cover you have to see if it includes a telephone advice line. They will tell you adverse possession is tricky but if they have fenced off unregistered land (or in this case denied access by erecting a gate) and used it as their own for 12 years they have a claim and the land registry may uphold that claim and let them register it as their own.

If there is a public right of access their claim may fail.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/adverse-possession-of-1-unregistered-land-and-2-registered-land/practice-guide-5-adverse-possession-of-1-unregistered-and-2-registered-land-where-a-right-to-be-registered-was-acquired-before-13-october-2003

Please don’t contact the planning department, they have no jurisdiction or knowledge over rights of way or land ownership etc.

I wouldn't know as nothing narrow like that in my area. There are lanes behind houses with garages but obviously wide enough for a vehicle to get in and out of the garages.

This. It may well be worth your while to invest a few quid in getting a legal exploration of who actually does own the land and go from there. Dream scenario - you get to buy it it yourselves and then you can chuck your rotten neighbours out!

It's likely owned by the original developer, which depending on how old your house is, could be virtually untraceable, rendering it up for grabs with adverse possession. They may have all their ducks in a row counting down the clock for them being able to apply officially for adverse possession and you coming along making a request has scuppered their plans and made them angry and unreasonable in response - therefore, you need to document some of your own very much needed access to the land ASAP. Maybe you need to do some pointing of the bricks on that side which would be such an interesting job that you can take pictures of yourselves on a ladder doing it :) someone mentioned Google earth... It's sometimes useful for historical pictures of boundaries and things in and on those boundaries. You should also use the land registry to raise alerts (free of charge) on your property, any of your neighbours near this land, and if it's an option, the land itself. I have had a similar (ongoing) issue with a very bored, lonely old man who's admitted that it's his whole life goal to fuck over the people who live in my house and the immediate neighbours because of a historic land grab of a triangular piece of land behind all our houses that he felt was only his to grab - he didn't like it when the previous owner of my house did the same as him, and he's been at war about it ever since. He's spent lots and lots of money trying to find out who owns the land to to avail (I have a feeling it might be who I pay our ground rent too, but he might not have the same land owners as we do as he lives on a different street). Anyway...

I tried to apply for AP (only for my existing boundary & nothing more of this still sizeable bit of land) which now qualifies for AP, a few years ago and because he'd put an alert on the land, it poked the bear and he started sending us legal letters, none of which held any weight, especially with my counter legal letters with reams of evidence including very clear Google earth images. Even his own evidence backed our dates up lol. Land registry didn't want to formalise the new boundary with him kicking up a fuss unless we took it to court, so we're just waiting for him to die now tbh, and then we'll try again, because i just cannot be arsed going down that route when the land has been in its current adversely possessed (by 5 different properties!) state for so long.

Basically, it sounds like your neighbours are being arsey for the same reason as mine was... They had a little plan, invested a bit of money into it and hoped everyone else would be oblivious while the clock ticked towards their goal of AP. You've ruined his plan now and depending on the time elapsed he can't prove it's purely him who uses the land. Especially if you get out there and access it with dated evidence :) or further more, with a legal letter requesting a key for his gate for right of way access to the back of your wall.