To wonder if there's any actual evidence that's trans women are not safe in male loos?

[Evedence]

I feel, as a FWR lurker, that I would have seen linked articles to bank up the fact that trans identifying men aren't safe in men's loos, and therefore that's the rational why women should budge up and accept trans identifying men in their spaces.

I'm pretty sure with a quick Google I could fund evident that trans identity men have made women's spaces unsafe (Kate delowski? The one who worked for a charity and made a masturbation video).

So AIBU to wonder what hard evidence there is?

I think trans women are trans women, not women, and also not men.

And trans men are trans men, not men and also not women.

And more hyperbolic and emotional manipulative posting. No one has said they ‘hate’ people with trangender identities.

It is not ‘hate’ to state that all male people should be excluded from female single sex provisions. But thanks for showing readers the tactics your arguments rely on to convince others.

Hyperbole and emotional manipulation. Followed up with evidence that lacks symmetry with how attacks and abuse for female people are treated by society and police.

It really is a good demonstration. Thank you.

So if TW are not women as you say, then why should they go into women’s spaces? Surely a third space would be needed, or they use the male toilets,which is right as they are male.

So now again we have a situation where women are expected to publicly discuss their trauma to have their needs not dismissed. Do you see how your point works?

I have been abused by male people with transgender identities. Do I have to disclose this to you so that you might listen when I say to you that I don’t want to share my female single sex space with any male person above the age of 8-10 years?

Do I need to have been raped? What will be enough for you?

And enough with the ‘do you even notice’. If you, personally, lack the ability to correctly identify a person’s sex please don’t assume your lack of ability is the norm.

What makes any person with a transgender identity not of the sex they were born?

Similarly your insistence on dismissing the existence of nonbinary genders, not recognising the existence of transpeople and reducing them to a binary they reject is highly manipulative and is a tactic designed to deny their existence, allowing you to disingenuously apply reasoning relating to men as a wider category rather than the tiny minority of people who are transgender.

It’s sticking your fingers in your ears and closing your eyes and not facing the reality that trans people exist and do not fit into your simplistic model.

Really dismissive contribution that, thanks.

You’re welcome. Also a biscuit might be good for your blood sugar. You seem a little riled up.

The lack of symmetry in the hate crime statistics is something that activists who rely on those hate crimes against trans people cannot acknowledge.

When you have people being reported for hate crimes because they have been misgendered or have seen a sticker that offended them, there is some serious issues in using those crimes to support a male person coming into a female single sex toilet.

It also puts the issue into a different perspective.

Male people with a transgender identity: concerned at being misgendered so needs safety.

Female people: concerned by a male person who can attack, abuse or just by being in the space remove the expected privacy that space is there for.

But those who use those statistics don’t think of the lack of symmetry. They think they have posted a gotcha.

I don’t believe in non binary genders anymore than I believe in God, or Buddha or that the earth is flat. It is not a belief system I have and so yes, I do dismiss the existence of non-binary genders!

There are men, women and everything else is just a societal and/or cultural stereotype

I’m not supportive of trans people, by any means, but I do think sex and gender are different by definition. You can behave and/or attempt to appear more similar to the societal concept of one gender, or the other, or neither exactly, or either, from day to day.

But you will always be male or female (with the exception of the tiny, TINY percentage of the population who had a genetic mixup and were born intersex), and nobody is “forcing you into a binary” by acknowledging that— it is a binary, and you will inherently always be within it, no matter which gender you identify with. Advocating for the continuation and protection of single-sex spaces, and/or for third spaces for those who don’t want to use their appropriate single-sex space, is perfectly reasonable.

"..reducing them to a binary they reject..."

They can reject it until they're blue in the face. The binary will still exist.

Human sex is binary and immutable, as in all mammals.

It is not possible to change sex nor is it possible not to have a sex.

That's reality.

I did ask DH what he would think if he saw a bloke in a dress in the gents; he responded that he would probably have a wry smile to himself.

IT DOES NOT MATTER WHO HAS BEEN/NOT BEEN ATTACKED
Men should not be in womens toilets - end of
I have no hate for any man based on how he dresses or whether he wears make up but I do not believe that they should be in women only spaces

I don't believe in the existence of any genders. They're all made up. But non binary is the silliest of the lot.

Of course we recognise the existence of trans people. If they didn't exist, there wouldn't be a debate about which toilets and changing rooms they should be using, would there? Silly.

A trans person is any person who claims to identify as a member of the opposite sex to the one they actually are. That's all we need to know. There's no purity test, and even if there were, the reason why someone identifies as a member of the opposite sex still wouldn't be relevant to the rest of society.

The rest of us aren't defined by reference to how a small, self-selecting group of people perceive themselves, and our sex based rights shouldn't be conditional on that subset of people permitting us to have them.

The world does not revolve around people with gender identities.

And they fit into the "simplistic" male humans and female humans just the same as the rest of us. The difference between us and them is all in their heads.

It’s sticking your fingers in your ears and closing your eyes and not facing the reality that trans people exist and do not fit into your simplistic model.

Of course they exist but in order to be Trans they first have to belong to one sex - you cannot be a Trans woman if you are not a man.
It is pretty simple.

Baffling. Is your view of the world the only legitimate one now ?

Should we be preventing christians from entering shopping centres because YOU personally don’t believe in the existence of god ?

Nobody is prevented from entering shopping centres, what are you wibbling on about?

I have dismissed non-binary genders? Where?

I don’t reduce male people with transgender identities to a binary they reject. I acknowledge their sex, particularly when it is important to the discussion at hand. Because those male people are still male people. Their belief that they have a transgender identity does not change the material reality that they are male.

“allowing you to disingenuously apply reasoning relating to men as a wider category rather than the tiny minority of people who are transgender.”

Those male people are male people. And in fact, the law of the UK for the purposes we are discussing on this thread actually regard them as ‘men’. Just because you don’t seem to like this, doesn’t change the material reality at all.

“It’s sticking your fingers in your ears and closing your eyes and not facing the reality that trans people exist and do not fit into your simplistic model.”

More hyperbole and emoting. No, I am not sticking my fingers in my ears and denying that transpeople exist. I think I have been very clear that male people remain male people even if they have a transgender identity. And laws are based around sex where it matters. And in female single sex spaces, sex does indeed matter.

My view is not controversial. It is not hateful. But again, please do carry on with the baseless and hyperbolic accusations of hate. Because every time you do it, readers see what you are calling hate.

Eh?
Who is banned from shopping centres now?

Haven't you heard? They've put in place new security systems so the automatic doors won't open for anyone detected to have "preferred pronouns".

Christians in shopping centres is in no way comparable to single sex spaces.

And I emphasise the word 'sex'. People's beliefs about gender do not change their physical sex, which is the basis for laws and social contracts regarding single sex spaces.

There was a VERY obvious trans individual at my workplace who was using the female loo… I think it made all 3 of us women a bit uncomfortable, because at one point “she” came out of the stall and we all just looked at one another, quite shocked. If it had been a changing room without stalls, I would have complained about it.

I also wonder how that works with our job, where part of our promotion ability is dependent on the degree of physical fitness we are able to maintain and demonstrate. “She” obviously had way more muscle mass than any of us; I think people with the advantage of going through male puberty should be held to male physical fitness standards. (I also believe the minimum standards should be equal for both sexes, but that’s neither here nor there.)

No one is being banned from shopping centres. Just as no one is being banned from toilets.

Gender identity can be as important/unimportant to you as you like. But it does not trump sex.

Gender identity is something that can be used as a Trojan horse/bait and switch tactic to get access to sex specific spaces that don't belong to you.