Was I wrong to refuse sale at work urgent advice needed

[LemonBlueberryX]

So this morning at work (I work in retail - but not a supermarket, think along the lines of b&m), someone came in and tried to buy an item. I was working on the till. When they came to the till I felt frozen on what to do as I didn’t feel comfortable selling this item in these circumstances (based on a stereotype of what this person looked like). I asked for ID (it’s a look25 item) hoping they wouldn’t have it so I could refuse sale but they did. After that I felt I had to make a choice and so I refused sale. Because of things that have happened in my area recently I felt that by allowing this sale I would be personally contributing to bad things.

They kicked off and asked for the manager who came over and asked me why I refused the sale and I just froze and couldn’t answer. Manager took over the till and served the person. The rest of my shift went on as normal but Managers just whatsapped me an hour ago asking me to come in at 10 tomorrow for a chat. I don’t work saturdays so not usually in. What do I say?

I dont really want this getting back to my manager so have tried to be vague about said item

I’d also mention your past experience of two of your friends being stabbed, as that’s also relevant.

It’s awful. But it isn’t relevant. Otherwise we could have barmaids refusing to serve people on certain demographics because their dad/uncle/distant cousin was an alcoholic and it was really upsetting.

Tell him you lived in an area once where it was rife so you’re not going off stereotypes but lived experience.

This is still all “But someone I know…” conjecture. It’s meaningless.

Im wondering for those that keep blathering on about protected characteristics, is one of the protected characteristics 'looking like a wrong 'un'?

Because thats essentially what happened here, it didnt seem safe and didnt seem right.

I wish more shop staff were like you op

You can tell a lot of people in this thread have never lived in rough areas before.

Statistically you get about 600-900 stabbings per year in the worst London boroughs (and a London borough is pretty tiny), which averages out to about 2 a day, but really more because many boroughs bleed into each other and are seen as one area like in South London. That sounds little compared to what many in certain boroughs are used to, because those are just the official stabbings, not the tons of other knife crime that goes unrecorded and the almost universal knife-carrying.

Not uncommon in certain council house blocks for many families to have memorials by their door as well.

All this is to say I understand your instinct OP. Boys in my area buy knives for obvious reasons. But again you need to read the policy to see what basis for suspicions you are reasonably allowed to have and what you are not. Your flagging the purchase might be ok despite what your manager did, or it might not.

Most of MN live on nice estates with driveways not council estates and you can tell they’ve never encountered gang violence or antisocial behaviour. We’ve got memorials in our area and I don’t live in London so it’s definitely a national issue but until it gets closer to home for a lot of posters we can’t discriminate.

I think it's very reasonable to implement a much higher standard of precaution across the board (ie not just targeting certain demographics) in areas with rife knife crime tbh.

But I also just realised OP might not be selling in the area she references (with the knife crime)? Not clear to me. If that's the case her suspicion seems rather unjustified tbh.

But a sharp knife is a very basic essential for preparing meals. If a young adult is unable to buy one - and presuming you aren't suggesting that they should avoid issues at the till by just shoplifting one - how can they prepare meals?

Do we say that young adults should be able to buy kitchen knives or do we say that they shouldn't be able/allowed to cook for themselves? It can't be both.

If this were a thread posted by the mum of an 18yo man, complaining that he still expected her to prepare all of his meals for him, I know exactly which way it would go about disgusting lazy, useless, selfish, entitled young men!

It's a bit like saying that young adults should learn to drive and to be independent, rather than just relying on their parents to ferry them everywhere forever; but also that nobody should ever sell them petrol or diesel, as these are potentially dangerous substances that they can't be trusted not to abuse!

Sure but I'm specifically referencing OP's (presumed) location.

If he wanted that knife for genuine reasons he would not have kicked off so much. I was once refused a sale on a false nail kit because I had my (then) 10 year old dd with me and the kit contained glue. I have also been refused the sale of alcohol when I have had my dc with me. I never made a fuss.

DD works in The Range, she says customers rarely purchase a single knife on it's own and she too would have had reservations about selling the knife to someone like that.

I think you did the right thing op.

I think this is an issue generally with a lot of posters on MN. Their lives are protected, they think kindness solves all and can’t comprehend that everyone isn’t like them and their friends. Likely to vote Lib Dem/Green.,Haven't got a clue about how many people experience life.

To combat knife crime, the sort of actions the OP took are needed - stop all this namby pamby shit and absolutely question why an 18 year old is buying a single knife. In the real world it’s unlikely he’s decided to be cutting onions

Can you be honest with your manager?

• You felt it was an impossible situation without a clear right way forward.
• You had doubts about this young person - not 100% convinced about their age, knife crime is a problem among this age group.
• There’s no way of knowing if those doubts could mean a crime will be committed but the risks are high so needed your manager’s support.
• You handled getting your manager’s support less than smoothly as you felt anxious about the impossible situation.
• Manager, please can you give me advice that I can follow next time?

I do. But they wouldn't buy one. They get them free from the drug service. Hardcore junkies don't have money to spare to buy teaspoons from a shop.

Can't say I agree with a lot of the sentiment of your post, despite you quoting mine.

What, why?

Yanbu and thank you for your scruples.

Never seen an 18yo lad in a high crime area with a strong interest in food prep. If he was a catering student his mum would have bought it for him.

Teens are robbed of their bikes at knifepoint every week where I live, another one yesterday. Police overstretched/ doing f all and tougher rules needed around knife buying imo.

I think I may have done the same, anyone coming into a shop and JUST buying one large knife would worry me.

Why though? I bought a single knife and nothing else a little while ago. It was one I had previously considered too expensive, but was on special offer.

Thinking about it, most of my knives have been bought singly. The only time I've bought a set was when I left home 50 years ago.

Great post. I scanned the thread last night and was hoping someone would give the OP something helpful in a concise manner.

the handwringing on this thread is utterly ridiculous.

edited the quote didn’t work. On the post which said seemed aggressive smelt of weed had I misunderstood under 25 and taking in the police information.

@LemonBlueberryX Well done OP. I've worked somewhere where we sell age restricted goods and it's taken very seriously. If you think he was high and had doubts about his ID being real that's a good enough reason.

I have not read the whole thread but a skim suggests that some people on this thread don't understand the relevant law.

OP has not committed a crime. A shop is not obliged to sell goods to any customer.

It seems OP's refusal to sell the knife was based in part on the fact that the purchaser was a young man. If she would have sold the knife to an older man or a young woman, her refusal to sell potentially opened her employer up to a claim of age discrimination or sex discrimination.

Regardless of whether her refusal was discriminatory, OP is an employee and is therefore bound by her employer's policies. If her employer expects her to complete the sale in these circumstances, she can be disciplined for her refusal to do so and could receive a warning. It is unlikely she will have any legal recourse should this happen. Having said that, if OP's doubts about the ID offered were reasonable, she should not be disciplined.

Pro-Cook gave me a free knife and just chucked it in the bag with the set of pans I'd just bought.

I'm in my late 60s though, so they probably thought I was unlikely to be involved in gang wars or use it in a mugging.

Bloody hell op just read this thread and can't believe the number of people giving you a hard time or being frankly ridiculous feigning ignorance at why a teenage lad would want a single blade whilst living in an area where knife crime is a real issue and appearance/weed stench would contribute to likelihood of it being for nefarious reasons.

As mum of teenage boys THANK YOU. I absolutely agree you did the right thing morally and it's just a shame more people don't take this view.

I think some people are expecting an assailant to leave the knife at the scene with the receipt stuck to it.

Not at all. What an assumption to make on your part.

Well there seem to be an awful lot of people on this thread saying “OMG what if tomorrow he stabs someone and it’s on the telly that he bought the knife in your shop?!” That shows a fairly startling naivety to me.

But you don't know, you merely suspect, and that suspicion is based on factors like age and gender. Which is understandable, given that young males are disproportionately represented among perpetrators of knife crime.

I think this is one of those situations where there's no right answer, tbh.