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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Question about lethal injection

252 replies

Leafy3 · 22/05/2025 11:09

Grim subject, I know, but why is it seemingly so hard for prisons in the states to get it right? It's clearly an unpleasant way to go...Why don't they put the person under a general anaesthetic first?

We euthanise animals quickly & painlessly, why don't they (can't they?) use the same drugs on humans?

OP posts:
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Coconutter24 · 22/05/2025 14:59

AffIt · 22/05/2025 14:29

Firstly, the Western use of the word 'karma' bears absolutely no resemblance to its application in Hinduism or Buddhism: essentially you just mean revenge. Own what you mean.

And secondly, state-sanctioned murder (because that's what it is) is an incredibly high price that I, as a member of a civilised society, am not prepared to pay, no matter what.

Miscarriages of justice aside (and they are frighteningly common), when you put the power to take a life into the hands of the state then it is entirely possible that I, or a friend or a family member, might one day find ourselves on the wrong side of the government of the day.

The death penalty is fundamentally wrong.

Karma is a force produced by a persons actions in one life and will determine what will happen in this or the next life… so yes I mean karma

TunnocksOrDeath · 22/05/2025 15:01

GasPanic · 22/05/2025 12:49

I don't understand why if a state was that keen on lethal injection with a particular drug they could set up a state owned manufacturing plant that produced the necessary drugs. It can't be that hard to set up a plant to produce a single drug in low volume.

I am also surprised they don't import it from somewhere else as pretty much every country imports drugs from various places around the world.

Companies don't have to accept the state's/government's custom though. If you're a chem. plant that out-of-the-blue receives an order for a near industrial quantity of one of the products required to synthesise phenobarbital, from the government, you'd know why, and basically be in the same position as a drugs company being asked to supply the finished product. A lot of companies do not want to sell products that will be used to kill people.
I am not in favour of the death penalty, but my feeling is that a state decrees that certain criminals must be killed, it should be quick and dignified; otherwise the state lowers itself to the level of the perpetrator they are punishing. So I would not criticise a medical professional for agreeing to perform an injection on that basis, but most just couldn't bring themselves to do it, which is fair enough.

SerendipityJane · 22/05/2025 15:07

Our last hangman ultimately didn't support the death penalty.

If you mean Albert Pierrepoint, he wasn't Britains last hangman. And he changed his view depending on who was paying. As you would expect from someone who kills people for a hobby.

KrisAkabusi · 22/05/2025 15:07

Would you be happy knowing your child was molested and murdered or you parter was killed and the offender just got to carry on living?

Would you be happy if your child was molested and murdered, and then an innocent person was executed, while the offender just got to carry on living and offend again?

Miscarriages of justice happen. There will be cases where the courts and the jury can be as certain as you think it is possible to be, yet still be wrong.

Coconutter24 · 22/05/2025 15:39

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 22/05/2025 14:39

I hope that in that situation, my stance on the death penalty would remain unchanged, but obviously it is not possible to say what I would actually feel if a member of my own family was murdered. I very much doubt that I would be thinking straight in that situation, which is why I wouldn't ever judge a victim's family for feeling whatever they feel.

However, that's why we have judges and juries - to make decisions that are calm, measured and not swayed by the overwhelming emotions which are understandably felt by the victims' families.

Not all victims' families feel the same in any case. One of my university friends was raped and murdered by her ex boyfriend. Her parents - motivated by their faith, which I respect but do not share - have worked incredibly hard on themselves to be able to "forgive" her killer. They would not support the death penalty, even after their loss.

As for your suggestion that "definite evidence" should be required in order to enable the state to kill people, presumably you understand people who have been subjected to miscarriages of justice have been found guilty "beyond all reasonable doubt". And many have been pressured into making false confessions as well. So if you support the death penalty, you are effectively saying that you think the state killing a few innocent people by accident is a price worth paying. Fair enough if that's your view, but I wholeheartedly disagree with you.

Edited

Where did I say as a blanket rule I agree with the death penalty? I said for those that have hurt or killed people yes it’s what they deserve but I didn’t write anywhere that I think it should be a thing

Coconutter24 · 22/05/2025 15:40

Panterusblackish · 22/05/2025 14:54

This shows how little you know given that confession is one of the least reliable forms of evidence.

Yet here you are advocating for someone's death based on your lack of education and knowledge on this subject. Literally willing to have someone put to death. To snuff out their existence. To take them from their family.

The Dunning Kruger effect in action

There are vast amounts of material available on why confessions are so unreliable if you care to look.

I suggest you start with the Reykjavik confessions podcast. It's an excellent example of how peoples lives can be torn asunder by false confession.

Fourteen days in May is also utterly compelling and horrifying look at the barbaric of the death penalty.

Some of the completely innocent icelanders later committed suicide. You'd have probably preferred for the state to hang them while you bayed for blood. Pretending you are morally superior and then turning a blind eye when miscarriages of justice are uncovered

Of course i would want an offender to keep living. To serve their sentence. To live with their crime. If your instant reaction is death as punishment, you are frankly no better than them.

Where did I say as a blanket rule I agree with the death penalty? I said for those that have hurt or killed people yes it’s what they deserve but I didn’t write anywhere that I think it should be a thing.

Coconutter24 · 22/05/2025 15:41

pointythings · 22/05/2025 14:57

How many innocent people executed would be too many for you to accept that the death penalty is wrong? There is a correct answer.

I’m just copying and pasting at this point because people are reading what they want!

Where did I say as a blanket rule I agree with the death penalty? I said for those that have hurt or killed people yes it’s what they deserve but I didn’t write anywhere that I think it should be a thing

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 22/05/2025 15:44

Coconutter24 · 22/05/2025 15:39

Where did I say as a blanket rule I agree with the death penalty? I said for those that have hurt or killed people yes it’s what they deserve but I didn’t write anywhere that I think it should be a thing

So do you support the death penalty for some crimes or not?

You appear to be saying that you do support it for those that have hurt or killed people, but then you say that you haven't said it should be "a thing". Whatever that is supposed to mean.

So are you in favour or not?

TheignT · 22/05/2025 15:45

HoppingPavlova · 22/05/2025 11:28

This is my understanding, but may be incorrect. Pets are happily pts with pentobarbital. No issues I’m aware of and in my personal experience of pets they have been really good, instantaneous deaths. However, no drug company or wholesaler will supply it for the purpose of lethal injection, not because they give a shit, but they don’t want years of the anti death penalty brigade picketing endlessly outside their facilities. That means other things have had to be used for lethal injection, usually potassium chloride together with some other drugs such as muscle paralysers (Dexter style). Problem is, this is not the ‘nice’ death pentobarbital enables, and I believe some have taken over half an hour to cause death with it being pretty unpleasant meanwhile.

My lovely dog had an awful death. I'm not sure if it was some sort of allergic reaction but she fought so hard and banged her head on the floor and the sound was horrific, two of us couldn't hold her. It was 12 years ago and I feel like crying just remembering the horror of it. I can never have a dog in case it happens again. I had dogs all my life but I can't risk it again.

FionnulaTheCooler · 22/05/2025 15:51

Coconutter24 · 22/05/2025 14:17

I will call it karma for those that have hurt people and taken lives of others.
For those that there is definite evidence they did the crime or a confession yes the state can kill them.
Of course I wouldn’t be happy if a family member was wrongly convicted.
Would you be happy knowing your child was molested and murdered or you parter was killed and the offender just got to carry on living?

I'd be happy if the perpetrator was sentenced to a lifetime of hard labour with very basic food, just enough to keep them alive and no luxuries. That would be a better punishment than death even if it did involve a few minutes of pain and suffering before they go. Unfortunately our penal system is too soft, look at what Ian Brady got away with up until his death, getting a kick out of tormenting the families of the victims whose bodies were never found.

Coconutter24 · 22/05/2025 15:54

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 22/05/2025 15:44

So do you support the death penalty for some crimes or not?

You appear to be saying that you do support it for those that have hurt or killed people, but then you say that you haven't said it should be "a thing". Whatever that is supposed to mean.

So are you in favour or not?

Yes I would support it for those that have killed people but I know it would not be death penalty for some but not others, if it’s a penalty everyone gets the same consequence. So no I’m not in favour but equally if those that DID kill someone got it I wouldn’t be to concerned with it 🤷‍♀️ but people responding to my comment because I said it’s karma seem to be reading what they want to read and assuming I have said yes I agree with death penalty for all… which I haven’t said

Greybeardy · 22/05/2025 15:54

prefacing this with saying that I think the whole idea of executing people (by any means) is revolting, doesn't work as a deterrent and can't be undone in the event of a miscarriage of justice...

... a large part of the problem is that the drug companies won't supply the 'best' anaesthetic drugs to be used for that intention, so they end up improvising with other anaesthetic/sedative combos and the people doing the job are not people who use these drugs regularly (eg. anaesthetics/intensive care specialists). Broadly, they're using an anaesthetic, then muscle relaxant, then something to stop the heart quickly. The prison population may also not have completely standard physiology so even if you get IV access the dosing may be tricksier and if you don't understand the pharmacology really well it's actually pretty unbearable to think about how badly you could stuff it up. Securing IV access also doesn't seem to be reliably in the skill set of the people doing it, and there are multiple stories in the media of cannulation taking several hours (obesity and illicit IV drug use in the past may make this much harder for the amateur cannulator).

The doses of sedative they use are massive so unless they're stuffing up dilutions or the cannulas are tissuing then they should 'work' for most people and render them unconscious. It looks like the 'standard' dose of midazolam they use is about 50-100x higher than the max we'd probably use routinely for procedural sedation. That dose on it's own would kill most people because lying flat on your back, as they are, you'd obstruct your airway +/- aspirate +/- develop negative pressure pulmonary oedema, become hypoxic and have a cardiac arrest... but that would look extraordinarily ugly, and takes a long time. The muscle relaxant they use will stop any respiratory effort... again that on it's own would work because it stops you breathing but takes a minute or two (depending on the drug) to work and then the ensuing hypoxia takes time to cause cardiac arrest. If you're only using bolus doses of sedation rather than continuous infusion there is a theoretical risk of the muscle relaxant lasting longer than the sedative and of developing awareness whilst paralysed, but that's unlikely with the super high doses of benzos if it's gone in the right place and hypoxia would be affecting the brain by then. The potassium is what stops the heart quickly (concentrated potassium is incredibly painful to inject awake). I guess they probably use the potassium just to get it over and done with quickly (more of a benefit to the spectators really if the sedation has gone into a vein).

The whole process probably looks grim even when it goes to plan. On the way to achieving anaesthesia, the brain goes through different stages... one of which is where it becomes 'excitable' and triggers writhing/jerking movements (anyone who's ever watched their child have a gas induction will have seen this... kids get really wriggly as they're losing consciousness, but they don't know anything about it). 'Proper' IV anaesthetic induction agents work so quickly that you normally pass through this phase of anaesthesia so quickly you don't usually see this phase of excitement. Drugs like midazolam take longer to work and I wonder, if the dose of drug has gone into a vein, then the twitching/movement people have described while watching executions is the excitable stage of anaesthesia rather than really conscious effort... but it's not really something you want to be taking a chance on given what's going to happen next. Another thing that is occasionally sited as being evidence of distress/awareness is when tears are seen. It's actually not uncommon to see the odd tear even during a completely straightforward, routine anaesthetic, without there being any awareness, however tears are obviously emotive and, given the nature of what they're doing, not something you want to take a chance with. There is technology available that can give an idea of the likelihood of a person being aware, but they don't seem to use it routinely (it's not fool proof and takes expertise to use it properly, and given that they seem happy to crack on without even being able to cannulate properly, I'm not at all surprised they don't have the brains to think about depth of anaesthesia monitoring). Just like with the drug suppliers though, even if the motivation existed to demonstrate the sedative was working, I can't imagine the manufacturers of this equipment would want anything to do with using it for this reason.

Last thing that's perhaps interesting to compare is the processes used in physician assisted dying in countries that allow it. The difference in the quality of death is a) having someone who can get a cannula in properly and b) quick acting, 'proper' drugs at appropriate doses/delivered appropriately. (I don't think that's an argument for making either available for judicial execution...but the absence of both should be an argument for stopping it)

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 22/05/2025 16:00

Coconutter24 · 22/05/2025 15:54

Yes I would support it for those that have killed people but I know it would not be death penalty for some but not others, if it’s a penalty everyone gets the same consequence. So no I’m not in favour but equally if those that DID kill someone got it I wouldn’t be to concerned with it 🤷‍♀️ but people responding to my comment because I said it’s karma seem to be reading what they want to read and assuming I have said yes I agree with death penalty for all… which I haven’t said

So you would support it in certain cases only?

How would you decide which cases? And how would you propose that miscarriages of justice could be avoided?

SerendipityJane · 22/05/2025 16:20

If there any fans of facts and science here, then getting a way to watch this would interest you.

TL;DR is yes: there are more efficient ways to kill someone. But no: the US has no interest in making executions anything other than unpleasant.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/broadband/tx/executions/lethal_injection/index_textonly.shtml

BBC - Horizon - How to Kill a Human Being

Michael Portillo looks at the science behind executions.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/broadband/tx/executions/lethal_injection/index_textonly.shtml

SerendipityJane · 22/05/2025 16:21

For fans of deep diving 😀

  • Title: Royal Commission on Capital Punishment 1949–1953: Report
  • Published: 1953
  • Command Paper: Cmd. 8932
  • Chair: Sir Ernest Gowers
🔍 Purpose and Scope The commission was asked to: "consider whether the law of murder in England and Wales and the sentence of death should be retained, amended or abolished." As part of its wide-ranging mandate, the commission explicitly examined methods of execution in use at the time (primarily hanging), and compared them with alternatives used in other countries, such as:
  • Electrocution
  • Gas chambers
  • Firing squads
  • Lethal injection (discussed as an emerging concept)
However, the commission did not recommend a change in execution method, though it noted public and medical concerns about hanging. 🗝️ Key Takeaways on Execution Methods:
  • The commission found no clearly superior alternative to hanging at the time, though none were deemed entirely humane or reliable.
  • It emphasized the importance of minimizing suffering and improving the technical procedures of hanging.
  • It also helped pave the way for the gradual abolition of the death penalty, first by limiting its application in the 1950s and eventually abolishing it in stages from 1965 to 1998.
Leafy3 · 22/05/2025 16:22

randomchap · 22/05/2025 14:27

That hangman you're taking about is Albert Pierrepoint

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Pierrepoint

He didn't believe that it was a deterrent.

I am aware

OP posts:
Theunamedcat · 22/05/2025 16:27

Leafy3 · 22/05/2025 13:48

Thanks for the replies, it seems contention over the death penalty and supply of appropriate drugs, along with desire or willingness to cause suffering is the answer.

I just find it baffling that as societies, we can clearly euthanise easily & painlessly yet we can't manage this. (Using 'we' in it's widest possible sense, here)

When Britain had the death penalty, we had an incredibly efficient hangman, anyone know why hanging isn't used in the states?

Because you need to be precise with calculation too long a rope the neck doesn't break too sharp a drop the head pops off (I'm hoping it's a metaphorical head popping off and not physically) either way math needs to math rope needs to rope etc etc it's just not simple

Londonmummy66 · 22/05/2025 16:30

I once had a conversation about this with someone who had actually attended a Pierrepoint hanging in an official capacity (Home Office). He was a much older generation who thought that in the case of really heinous crimes the death penalty was acceptable but also that it had to be carried out as efficiently and painlessly as possible. He said that that was the case in the execution he observed but that it still haunted him afterwards.

Theunamedcat · 22/05/2025 16:32

America has a problem what to do with the worst in society we too will soon have that problem as our prisons are full but we let our criminals out on the streets we don't have life (meaning for life) sentences the whole thing needs an overhaul but I don't think the solution should be government sanctioned murder personally

However should someone kill my child or another member of my family I would most likely change my mind

Leafy3 · 22/05/2025 16:32

Theunamedcat · 22/05/2025 16:27

Because you need to be precise with calculation too long a rope the neck doesn't break too sharp a drop the head pops off (I'm hoping it's a metaphorical head popping off and not physically) either way math needs to math rope needs to rope etc etc it's just not simple

Yes, I know how precise one would have to carry out a "clean" hanging and I'd already alluded to the lack of people suitable for the role, but for states which don't seem to be concerned with the how cleanly an execution is carried out, I don't know why hanging isn't done.

@Greybeardy interesting and informative post, thank you. Didn't know about the wriggly stage of going under GA.

OP posts:
Leafy3 · 22/05/2025 16:33

Londonmummy66 · 22/05/2025 16:30

I once had a conversation about this with someone who had actually attended a Pierrepoint hanging in an official capacity (Home Office). He was a much older generation who thought that in the case of really heinous crimes the death penalty was acceptable but also that it had to be carried out as efficiently and painlessly as possible. He said that that was the case in the execution he observed but that it still haunted him afterwards.

I can imagine it would. That must have been a fascinating, if very bleak, conversation.

OP posts:
scorpiogirly · 22/05/2025 16:34

Leafy3 · 22/05/2025 11:09

Grim subject, I know, but why is it seemingly so hard for prisons in the states to get it right? It's clearly an unpleasant way to go...Why don't they put the person under a general anaesthetic first?

We euthanise animals quickly & painlessly, why don't they (can't they?) use the same drugs on humans?

Depending on the crime, it's of no consequence to me if they suffer or not.

SerendipityJane · 22/05/2025 16:34

Londonmummy66 · 22/05/2025 16:30

I once had a conversation about this with someone who had actually attended a Pierrepoint hanging in an official capacity (Home Office). He was a much older generation who thought that in the case of really heinous crimes the death penalty was acceptable but also that it had to be carried out as efficiently and painlessly as possible. He said that that was the case in the execution he observed but that it still haunted him afterwards.

Presumably they got the right chap too.

NotMe1981 · 22/05/2025 16:37

I don’t think they want it to be humane. The other methods used aren’t. The families of the victim/s can watch and I guess there needs to be a ‘show’ of suffering going on for them,

Not saying I agree with that! I read a very interesting book about the death penalty when I was a young teenager, back in the early 90s. I’m sure more recent literature is available but this is still worth reading.

amzn.eu/d/i1fyQa7

Canshehavewaferthinham · 22/05/2025 16:38

IsItAllRubbish · 22/05/2025 14:12

I don’t think hanging is efficient is it?I thought it often went wrong?

(Taking a life shouldn’t be simple)

It does/did often go wrong. Smeller me, women and children would writhe in agony for hours because their weight wasn't sufficient to cause their neck to snap. And there's a reason that when rights are read 'we' say 'Until you are dead...' because hanging sometimes didn't kill someone and this was originally seen as a sign that the state should let them live. Also the fact that horrific injuries from hanging often still did not kill someone but left them in agony just waiting to die.

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