FIL teasing daughter - don’t want to chaperone this anymore!

[MamaW05]

I have known my FIL over twenty years. He’s a socially awkward man and in the time I’ve known him has barely managed more than a hi and bye to me. I thought it might be me but since having kids friends have met him at parties etc and independently made the same comments. All fine, we’ve rubbed along fine as needed and in his own way welcomed me into the family.

I have a 4 year old child and in the last year or so I (or we, my partner feels the same!) have found it increasingly hard to deal with his behaviour around her. Whilst he can play nicely with her, brings her stickers etc, he will tease her to the point that she is upset or angry, carry on a bit more, then tell her off (he’s told her to shut up before) or tease her for being upset. She can be sobbing saying ‘stop it’at this point. My husband and I now watch like hawks and are having to step in each time - husband will not have an overall chat with FIL about his behaviour as he says he won’t get it, it’s just who he is, he’ll say it’s just a joke etc.

We had agreed my husband would be around for all visits my FIL is there to nip it in the bud. I have a baby and cannot be there all the time and I’m not willing to leave my elder daughter to be teased by herself. However recently when I thought it was only MIL free she asked to bring FIL as plans had changed so I said yes trying to be gracious. On this visit FIL told my daughter to tease him for his grey hairs, encouraging her to find more and keep going. He then suddenly turned round and retorted ‘well you’ve got ginger in YOUR hair’. She is 4. Luckily she has no idea this was intended as an insult but I’m fuming that this man is so thoughtless and could have set her up with an insecurity when she is currently so confident.

I’m now doubling down on my husband needing to be there for visits, I’m simply not prepared to be the chaperone for his bad behaviour anymore and I am unable to be there all the time whilst caring for the youngest too. I also have very precious little time with my daughters before going back to work, why should we all cop it because a grown man can’t check himself. However as I’m on maternity leave it’s going to very obvious their visits have become minimal and I feel sorry for his mum who looked after our daughter a lot before she went to school and I feel is owed an explanation.

So…
YABU - you and your daughter just need to put up with this behaviour and call him out. You should host them even without DH around. No family is perfect. Use any inappropriate comments as life lessons for your daughter.

YANBU - it’s unacceptable behaviour towards a 4 year old and you shouldn’t have to be the one to manage it or risk your daughter being hurt if you are not able to be in the room the whole time. Have the FIL visit only when husband is also available.

and if YANBU do we just say something? I feel like his mum is owed an explanation for the scarce visits. But I don’t believe this man has the capacity to understand or change so is there no point rocking the boat and we just manage visits accordingly??? I’d have a chat with his mum but I actually think she’d be quite offended and defensive about it all because there is no harm intended…but regardless of intent, I have a sobbing daughter almost every time.

Yy to cutting off his bullying. Also DH should have a word with MIL that FIL’s comments are really upsetting dd so he is minimising contact FIL’s contact with her. You’re not obliged to host anyone on your own, they’re DH’s parents, so don’t feel pressured.

Can I just add - I think your f'n'law does not know how to interact with her ... but its good news he wants to. You just need to show him. Literally start saying we would like you and DD to have a positive relationship let me show you how to interact with a 4 year old girl ... and sit them down and have a tea party and talk about dolls and other things or something you think she would like.
I think while you do need to put boundaries in place like what is not OK to say . I suspect if he is socially awkward he might not understand those boundaries so you need to give him things he can say.
And let me guess - does he tend to talk at people rather than with them and does he get obsessed with talking about his interests?

FIL you are finding enjoyment in making a 4 year old cry.

Grandparents generally adore their GC. Why do you enjoy making her upset and what do you get out of it?

we won’t be allowing you to entertain yourself by intentionally upsetting our dc. It’s not an appropriate or safe behaviour for an adult to indulge in

I agree with you, but it does depend also on whether he’s open to learning how to interact with her.

My MIL, well-meaning, but deeply unimaginative and with no ability to consider other approaches, does this maddening thing with every baby in her orbit, including her 13 grandchildren, and a great grandchild — she sort of clicks her fingers back and forth very close to their faces, and as they get older, she pulls a toy out of their hands and dangles it, snatching it away when they try to grab it. Invariably, and unsurprisingly, this makes them cry, after which MIL will look aggrieved and say ‘Babies usually love that ’ , as though these particular ones are malfunctioning. I conclude that what she’s desperate for is to cause a reaction. But she’s definitely not up for learning how to interact. I mean, she had five children of her own, and brought up ten younger siblings!

Your FIL sounds deeply unpleasant. I'd be really straight with him. He either stops it now or he won't be seeing your DD again.

Thank you! I think a change needs to be made in textbooks for foreigners learning English because red hair is called ginger. It will make things easier as well; red is so much easier to remember and pronounciate:).

I voted you are being unseasonable because you haven’t said anything! Stand up and advocate for your child. It’s bizarre not to tell
an adult to change their behaviour when they’re teasing your child. It doesn’t matter if he’ll get it or not you haven’t give him the chance to or brought the issue out in the open.

just quietly fuming away.

Abuse dressed up as a joke is still abuse, it's just the abuser is trying to avoid accountability.

Just say that to him on repeat. Is he a mysogynist?

@arcticpandas - I found this, on 'gingerphobia' -

People with red hair often face teasing, and the term "ginger" is sometimes used as an insult, even though it's often used as a term of endearment. This negativity towards red hair can stem from various factors, including:

Stereotypes and Folklore:
Red hair has been associated with negative stereotypes throughout history, including being linked to the devil's children or vampires.

Cultural Attitudes:
Some cultures have viewed red hair as unusual or even threatening.

Rareness:
Red hair is relatively rare, and this may contribute to people's curiosity and sometimes negative reactions towards it.

Historical Associations:
Some historical events and figures with red hair, like Judas Iscariot, have further fueled these negative stereotypes.

Social Acceptance:
Teasing and bullying based on hair colour may be seen as "banter" or "just joking," but it can have serious negative impacts on individuals, particularly children.

I agree with this 100%, @blubbyblub.

catching up! So to be clear we have been calling him out in the moment. We’ve not had a big conversation not because we’ve shied away from it but because we genuinely thought calling out in the moment was the most effective way. I genuinely do not think this man would be capable of reflecting on his behaviour, and making changes to how he acts in the future if we spoke to him about the behaviour overall. He sees nothing wrong with it so whilst we could recap specific examples and he might not say that exact thing again, he wouldn’t be able to make the leap and think oh, maybe this other thing I’m about to say is also not ok. It’s hard to fathom unless you know an adult like this.
The despair and need to change things is that it clearly isn’t stopping or ‘training’ him calling it out at the time. I already will not see him unless we are both there. It’s also not a pleasant or enjoyable visit to sit waiting to pounce and why should I.
however, husband is now going to do the direct talk approach and love love the walking out at first whiff of any bad behaviour. He doesn’t get words but he might actually get actions.
im also not arranging time together and he’s not welcome at my home without both myself and husband there. Husband and FIL both not good at organising so that will cut down any contact considerably. If it continues, no visits. I could not care less what this man thinks of me.

No. He’s an adult making a child cry.

OP, why have you let this continue for so long? You’re watching your FIL make your child cry and not doing anything about it. Be more assertive! And have a word with your DH. What are you both doing?

This is just horrible :( I’m not surprised you don’t speak to them.

He's a strange, strange man!!!
How horrible and bizarre that he's doing this to your little DD!
I would be livid!
You've given him so many chances and directions of how to do better, so he shouldn't use that as a defence and neither can your DH.
It's very weird that he manipulated your daughter like that and turned it back on her, so immature and out of place!
Very odd. I'd not allow him to see her however difficult that might be.

I echo what a pp just said. He is an adult making a little child cry. He is a bully, plain and simple.

It would be unfair to do that to an adult and they would probably want to punch you in the face,so to do it to a tiny child, that's strange and not something that should be stood for.

That is fascinating! Marvelous observation!

I wonder in a weird way, is it a sabotage tactic, so they don't have to put the effort into lengthy interactions with the children.

Honestly, after nearly 30 years of observing my MIL, it’s mostly lack of imagination, I think. She’s the eldest of a huge family, was essentially mother to her younger siblings (her mother had 17 pregnancies and 13 live births), married at 18 and had three children of her own by her 21st birthday, and was raising them in two damp rooms over a shop till they got a council house — I genuinely think she had to forge ahead like a tank through her life, and couldn’t afford to think there might be other ways of living. I do my best to credit her energy and coping capacity, but there’s no doubt her lack of imagination and tactlessness can make her very difficult to be around. She has three DILs and the other two are NC with her…

This has been quite enlightening op, my fil did similar things to dd and I never associated it with actually being socially awkward and I see he is
I suspect fil is nd but unfortunately he's also the most arrogant self obsessed man I've ever met
Whenever we've tried to say anything in anyway he's come back stronger and harder.

Bantersaurus. I m the big man, I ll shock everyone. I m so emboldened......... Yawn.

I call this type of teasing emotional abuse.

It confuses children and removes and feelings of safety they feel, particularly as their parents are there and witnesses to their distress.

Profoundly damaging to them.

My friends brothers teased her mercilessly and her parents just dismissed her distress for years as a joke.

She never forgot it and never forgave them.
She moved away the first chance she got, and told me about it when we became friends.

Both her parents and brothers tried to make amends when she wouldn't visit, but she wouldn't engage with them.

That was 30 years ago.

Take this very seriously.

This is completely out of order OP. A 4 year old can tell the difference between gentle teasing and what your FIL is doing which is belittling her.
I don’t always get it right with my DC, sometimes we will have a little joke about something they’ve done (or I have done! It goes both ways) and it’s funny - they laugh. But if they got remotely upset by something I said, I apologise immediately and don’t do it again.
My DM once called my DS a “silly muppet” because he made a mistake and I told her firmly in front of him to never speak to him like that again. She never did and he saw me sticking up for him.

Someone needs to shoot your FIL down FIRMLY in front of your daughter so she knows it’s not ok.

Sorry, I posted before I read this. You’re doing the right thing

From his responses so far he doesn’t sound likely to change. So I’d cut contact with him and DD as his determination to make your DD upset and then tell her off for it is vile.

Did/does he do similar with anyone else? Did he do it with H as a child?

And I’m sorry but your H is a total arse for failing to stand up for DD.

If you get on with MIL can you just invite her out without FIL and perhaps raise the topic?