FIL teasing daughter - don’t want to chaperone this anymore!

[MamaW05]

I have known my FIL over twenty years. He’s a socially awkward man and in the time I’ve known him has barely managed more than a hi and bye to me. I thought it might be me but since having kids friends have met him at parties etc and independently made the same comments. All fine, we’ve rubbed along fine as needed and in his own way welcomed me into the family.

I have a 4 year old child and in the last year or so I (or we, my partner feels the same!) have found it increasingly hard to deal with his behaviour around her. Whilst he can play nicely with her, brings her stickers etc, he will tease her to the point that she is upset or angry, carry on a bit more, then tell her off (he’s told her to shut up before) or tease her for being upset. She can be sobbing saying ‘stop it’at this point. My husband and I now watch like hawks and are having to step in each time - husband will not have an overall chat with FIL about his behaviour as he says he won’t get it, it’s just who he is, he’ll say it’s just a joke etc.

We had agreed my husband would be around for all visits my FIL is there to nip it in the bud. I have a baby and cannot be there all the time and I’m not willing to leave my elder daughter to be teased by herself. However recently when I thought it was only MIL free she asked to bring FIL as plans had changed so I said yes trying to be gracious. On this visit FIL told my daughter to tease him for his grey hairs, encouraging her to find more and keep going. He then suddenly turned round and retorted ‘well you’ve got ginger in YOUR hair’. She is 4. Luckily she has no idea this was intended as an insult but I’m fuming that this man is so thoughtless and could have set her up with an insecurity when she is currently so confident.

I’m now doubling down on my husband needing to be there for visits, I’m simply not prepared to be the chaperone for his bad behaviour anymore and I am unable to be there all the time whilst caring for the youngest too. I also have very precious little time with my daughters before going back to work, why should we all cop it because a grown man can’t check himself. However as I’m on maternity leave it’s going to very obvious their visits have become minimal and I feel sorry for his mum who looked after our daughter a lot before she went to school and I feel is owed an explanation.

So…
YABU - you and your daughter just need to put up with this behaviour and call him out. You should host them even without DH around. No family is perfect. Use any inappropriate comments as life lessons for your daughter.

YANBU - it’s unacceptable behaviour towards a 4 year old and you shouldn’t have to be the one to manage it or risk your daughter being hurt if you are not able to be in the room the whole time. Have the FIL visit only when husband is also available.

and if YANBU do we just say something? I feel like his mum is owed an explanation for the scarce visits. But I don’t believe this man has the capacity to understand or change so is there no point rocking the boat and we just manage visits accordingly??? I’d have a chat with his mum but I actually think she’d be quite offended and defensive about it all because there is no harm intended…but regardless of intent, I have a sobbing daughter almost every time.

yup. I'd say "stop bullying or we will go home" Call it like it is and say if he wants to take someone on he can have a go at you!

‘Stop winding her up please, it’s upsetting her’

try saying that.

My in laws are brilliant and live nearby. I still never visit them and they never visit me without my husband there. No reason, we just arrange visits when he’s there as they want to see him too and it takes some pressure off me. So just do that? Don’t have your mother in law over without your husband there in case the father in law tags along and tell husband he has to intervene every time to the point of it being boring. Also I think a bit of training of your daughter to tell grandad to leave her alone or to have permission to leave and do something more interesting in another room would be good.

Your poor daughter.
A bully for a grandad and a father too weak to protect her.
I would be disgusted with both.
Your husband can't be trusted either.

I would go NC completely.
What a shit show for you.

I really cannot understand parents afraid of upsetting those who bully and upset their children.

Really weird behaviour.

Cue affronted reaction from FIL that he's "just teasing", that he'll stop it "if you insist", a bit of harrumphing, and then he will go back to his old ways.

People that age and with such entrenched bullying Do. Not. Change.

And will make OP out to be the unreasonable one.

I think calling it what it is - bullying - might be more effective than calling it ‘teasing’.

I also think that telling him bluntly is vital - “If you carry on doing this, FIL, dd will grow up to hate and fear you - is that what you want? Are you enjoying making her cry, and destroying her self esteem? We will not let you do this any more!”

This would be a NC from me, the damage he is doing cannot be undone, I've had it as a child, your child deserves to be loved and cherished not ridiculed

Everyone criticising the OP's DH on this thread, remember - he has been brought up by this bully.

At least he is agreeing with the OP and supporting their daughter, even if he doesn't have the emotional tools to stand up to his bullying father.

Why aren't you saying anything?

"FIL Betty has said stop. You need to stop immediately or leave"

Fuck being nice

Good idea. A member of my family used to tease young children to the point of tears; it was horrible but he was ashamed when called out on it. Maybe the man will be too.

I don’t even care if the DH has been conditioned by the bully FIL. Part of parenting and maturing is doing some introspection and noticing toxic patterns and changing them so your kid is fucked up less than you were.

It’s probably easier to say than to do, when someone is mired in FOG - fear, obligation and guilt, @HiddenInCubeOfCheese.

Well, he’s got plenty of motivation playing out right in front of his eyes. The child MUST be bawling. How that doesn’t kick one in the primals, I don’t know.

I'd stop going round but I would tell MIL why, on her own, very straightforwardly. He winds your eldest up to upset her so you don't want to keep having him do it as it's not fun for her or you. But she'd love to see grandma who is welcome to come round by herself. Don't present it as something to apologise for, just as an unpleasant fact of life that you are no longer prepared to put up with.

I think you need to make sure he's not around her at all without you. No adult should be allowed to bully a child. He seems extremely immature but that's his problem, shouldn't be yours.

Sidenote; I'm really thick sometimes (also not English which might explain my incomprehension) but how is it insulting to say that someone's got ginger in their hair? It's a beautiful haircolour in my opinion.

Good q! It’s hard to explain, but is just something that’s ingrained teasing in your average UK playground.

Couldnt tell you where it originated or when, but every school kid here will have heard the teasing/bullying.

For goodness sake why have you not just told FIL that he’s treating your DD badly and he needs to stop?

If he won’t,- you will leave. Then do it!

He may be socially awkward or not able to relate to children but it isn’t fair on your DD to have to put up with this horrible treatment.

Be the parent and advocate for your daughter. Your partner needs to step up and parent too. He should be telling his dad to cut it out and be protective by his daughter.

So what’s the long term plan?

You’re going to do this forever? Run interference? What about when he starts upsetting the youngest?

I couldn’t spend any time with him at all.

@arcticpandas it's another form of discrimination based on a person's appearance.

I imagine it comes from racism towards Scottish people ( historically lots of red headed Scottish people) from the English way back in the days of yore when the English took control of Scotland, persecuted the people, broke the clans, put down the rebellions and basically treated the Scottish people appallingly

@ButteryLightHouse Sorry do not want to derail the thread (Fil should be kept far away from ALL children) but I still don't get the ginger thing. Is one not supposed to say ginger at all, I mean does it have negative connotations? I mean there are so many famous people (Ed Sheeran, prince Harry for ex) who I've read are referred to as ginger in a positive way. Not being deliberately obtuse here, I really want to understand so I don't go around insulting people unknowingly 😳

Just tell him to stop upsetting your child. What on earth is wrong with you that you can’t do that?

My dad is ND and I think to overcome his lack of social skills he ‘banters’ with people - he thinks everyone is having great fun but I think it’s the only way he can work out how to interact with people. He says something on the edge - people engage and do it with a smile on their face to try and keep the atmosphere light … he thinks he’s in a conversation. And because it’s working for him he continues to do it as I genuinely think he thinks that’s how people communicate. I don’t think he understands the rules of conversation … but it would be impossible to explain it to him.
it’s a balance - I would try and turn some of this around by doing a combo of reducing contact but also using it as an opportunity to teach her language and tricks for dealing with tricky people. Like grandad thats not a nice thing to say you have hurt my feelings.

I think it’s more because redheads are rare, and kids will bully the minority.

I wouldn’t say “ginger” if you don’t want to offend.

So: “Julianne Moore is a redhead” = fine, neutral

”that ginger Prince Harry” = othering

I know this is really boring, but have you thought about trying to have a conversation where you - or DH (or both, over an cuppa) explain from a positive POV what you do want from him? Like with some SEN children, maybe it’s about modelling positive, rather than saying “don’t”

”Andy, we know you love GD and we want you to have a great relationship; but we’re worried that when she cries because of “teasing” it’s damaging that relationship.

What do you think?

And how could we find nice stuff for you both to do or talk about so she doesn’t end up so upset?”

when a behaviour is just “normal” to him he might just not have even thought it was an issue - by directly asking him and by asking him to think about better alternatives it at least gives him a chance to change things.

if he doesn’t, then I’d stop contact too, I think.

As PP says, he needs to be shown a better way of relating to your DD. It’s unreasonable to just say "he won’t change" without even trying to get him to see the problem. He clearly just doesn’t know a good way of relating to young children - some men do seem to just go into relentless teasing mode.

I don’t think the "ginger" comment was so terrible, but I would have a serious talk with him and MIL to say you’re worried that your DC ends up in tears so often with him, and is starting to associate him with being unhappy. Tell him she doesn’t understand teasing and just thinks he’s being unkind to her and it’s stopping her wanting to be with him.

If he carries on after that, say "You’re making DC unhappy again".

I don’t agree with going NC with family for things like this. It won’t do your DC any long-lasting harm as she's not with him that often, though it might make her dislike him. In life we all have to learn to rub along with people we don’t like much. You can’t shield her from everyone who acts in a way that she doesn't like but isn’t actually harmful.