Stop me from losing my shit on FB... (disability/pub/dementia)

[WiddlinDiddlin]

I am really trying to sit on my hands and as I am here, clearly failing.

My Dad is currently in hospital. He is 84 and over the last few weeks has had a few short seizures (falling over, losing control, then coming round and lucid and aware very quickly) recently, two of them in his local pub.

The current situation is that the hospital suspect epilepsy related to dementia, and think he may regain some degree of awareness/lucidity/sense and come out of hospital (though not to his own home I suspect).

For the last two/three weeks, he's been taken to his local by my sister, as he no longer drives. He had a seizure at the pub a couple of weeks back - hospital - sent home, seemed ok... (hasn't driven since about a week before that though, will not drive again, car removed etc).

He was in the pub again on Wednesday, with my sister, and had another seizure. He came round and the ambulance call was cancelled and they advised her to drive him in, so she did.

He then had another seizure at the hospital and this time they've kept him in.

Today my sisters gone back to the pub to catch up with friends of hers and his - he/they have been going there forever, since he was in his 20s and since us kids were 3/4 years old... we've known the owners, and every tenant landlord for decades (to make it clear this is not some random pub).

The current landlord has taken it upon himself to tell my sister 'we're not equipped for people having medical incidents here, don't bring him again' - after overhearing her say that he's not going to be living by himself again, or driving again, or going anywhere alone.

Now I could understand banning him for being a rude, cantankerous old goat, or a bit of an arsehole, he is/was all of those things.

But surely you cannot ban someone from a pub because they might have a medical crisis, whilst supervised by another adult.

Does that mean all disabled people are banned, everyone with an underlying health condition is banned - surely that is not ok.

No one is expecting the pub to look after him, we never have, no more than they look after the people who go there and get falling down drunk, or in floods of tears because their dog/horse/wife died/left them...

I do understand that seeing someone have a fit is pretty traumatic... but if you want to work in hospitality and run a pub, you're going to see humans being humans, surely!

I really am fucking angry - the chances are he is going into a home and at BEST we may be able to take him out for an hour or two, it would be brilliant if he could go somewhere thats part of his routine, where he's familiar with the building and theres people he knows - and now that's been taken away.

I am also fucking furious that the landlord decided to tell my sister this TODAY when he knew she was straight there from the hospital feeling pretty upset about Dad and whats happened - it's pretty much removed the one thing she was clinging to that might be close to 'normal'.

AIBU? Is this actually ok?

Excuse me? What happened is disability discrimination and you’re endorsing it, as a nurse? What the heck is wrong with you?

Maybe the pub isn’t the best place for him if he keeps having seizures there? Alcohol is known to cause seizures.

I think it’s a tough one for them because I don’t think they’re unreasonable to be worried about him having more seizures (and potentially worse happening) given he’s had a few in a couple of weeks where ambulances have needed to be called, but it’s also disability discrimination.

YANBU. Although if it' a rural area, I'd avoid posting online and just tell people what happened, so it spreads word of mouth. If you know the owner, can you let her know what's happened and get her to speak to the young manager so he apologises to your Dad and overrides the ban? I do think you should see what the owner's response is before taking it to social media.

Is it for your comfort? Or are they hiding you away because it’s less messy and people don’t have to deal with it in a more public place?

Speak to the owner. Don't cut your nose off to spite your face by posting on FB.

I agree with not adding anything on FB. All sorts of reasosn not to: it's a personal issue and an open space, people make comments that can be nasty but you are likely to have to see them later etc

I know this wasn't on your OP, but the pub may be acting illegally. Under the Equality Act there is a definition of Disabled and your father is likely to meet the definition. An organisation must make reasonable adjustments and must not discriminate. Banning your father directly because of his illness is direct discrimination. It is illegal. (No legal advice being given, just my lay opinion)

@Wakemeupbe4yougogoas someone who has worked in care for the past 18 years…….yes it can be scary to see someone having a seizure.
You may not be aware but 1 in 20 can have a seizure in their lifetime so that may be you.
My husband developed epilepsy 2 years ago in his 30s…….is he not allowed to go anywhere incase he has a seizure and upsets someone?????
jog on!!!!

@Willyoujustbequietno I can’t see both sides…….so my husband can’t go anywhere incase he has a seizure?
If someone drinks alcohol and falls and hurts themselves??? Insurance?? nope!
also if you know anything about tonic clonic seizures they stiffen up like a board and can’t sit in a chair!

I didn't say that all.

But if there are frequent falls and its a known risk then legally I can understand why a business may be reluctant. They could be sued. There has to be some sort of compromise or reasonable adjustment that would protect both parties. Lots of businesses have disclaimers for example that indemnify them.

I think this is a super specific situation that needn't be extrapolated into the 'is no one who has seizures allowed to go anywhere?'. This is 'a very scruffy rural pub', 'the sort of place where you wipe your feet on the way out and there are more dogs than humans in there', where a couple of old farmers go on horses and tractors, with a young inexperienced landlord. Even OP says it's worthy of a sit-com. It's not somewhere with a rigorous HR department and clearly the regulars having words with the landlord was more impactful than getting legal.

I wouldn't add anything to Facebook no, for your dad's sake more than anything. I would speak to the manager though and point out that what he's doing is discrimination and against the law.

It is disability discrimination and not acceptable or allowed, but it is worth baring in mind that the legislation only covers the business and those who work in it, not the customers.

I say that because we have a culture of the customer is in charge, and should a customer not like something they believe that should be changed, and bear no heed if that directly contradicts the law.

I've had customers complain in the strongest terms about guide dogs in a food place, about noise when it's from someone disabled and making involuntary noise, people refusing to move when there's been a medical emergency and space is needed. People complaining about disruption and 'poor service' because they've had to wait while we're delivering first aid to someone. We've all heard the stories about customers stepping over people being resuscitated in a supermarket for a jar of jam. Further to that I've also been discriminated against by customers and as long as the business doesn't discriminate against me then there's nothing to stop that happening.

I've been told on more than one occasion that we 'shouldn't allow it' because ultimately there's an ever increasing number of people who think that the customer service they believe they're entitled to over rides everything else, the law, health and safety, someone else's life. And I've had managers who've pandered to this crap too. Customers who expect groveling apologies because they've been a bit inconvenienced by someone else's health incident.

So I can well believe that some customers have been complaining and in turn they've decided as customers it shouldn't be allowed because their comfort should come above anything and everything else, and a young and inexperienced manager might well listen and try and act on that. They've probably had to wait to get the next pint or made it all about how distressed they are 'having' to watch it unfold. And because people just like to complain and create drama and paint themselves as a victim.

Make no mistake it's wrong and he should know and understand the law at least that you can't refuse service on the grounds of disability. But I can see how it's happened all too well unfortunately.

We like to think we're an inclusive society but actually I think we're far from it.

@WiddlinDiddlin of course you're not being unreasonable, my child has epilepsy and when young would have numerous seizures daily. We'd never have left the house if we'd worried about what "might" happen.
We went about our business, dealt with what needed to be dealt with and kept his childhood as regular as we could.

@WillyoujustbequietOPs dad is ‘falling to the floor’ as he is having seizures. Not just tripping over etc
You can’t just strap someone to a chair incase they have a seizure.
My husbands seizures are quite violent and scary and could happen at any time, he dislocates his shoulders purely down to a seizure….so can he never go out incase he has one as he might sue somewhere if hurts himself??

Businesses like shops/cafes/pubs cannot have disclaimers for not letting customers into their premises due to a disability as something may happen.
Especially when it’s a pub…that serves alcohol and people can drink to excess, fall and hurt themselves.

Her dad still has some simple pleasures in life. Let him enjoy it if he can!

The landlord is an ignorant and discriminatory twat. Apart from the from the fact that he's not required to deal with medical events, doe he seriously think it's OK to exclude people with medical conditions from his pub? It must be particularly upsetting for people with epilepsy to read of his attitude. Perhaps you should suggest he puts a sign up saying no one with any medical condition can enter and see where that takes him with regard to future customers. Maybe offer to publicise it for him?

Again, I did not say that. I think you are misunderstanding my point.

But neither can you abdicate personal responsibility. If someone else gets injured due to a known risk then that potentially opens up the possibility of legal action. That's why people with certain medical conditions/medications must inform the DVLA for example.

I'm not advocating stopping his enjoyment. I'm simply saying I can appreciate both points of view.

I don't understand your analogy.

Yes, someone with epilepsy can't drive because of the risks to other people. But who or what is being put at risk by OPs dad going to the pub? OP's dad might get hurt during a seizure at the pub, but the landlord wouldn't be at risk of legal action.

I'm not saying it's going to be a common occurrence by any means but yes it's perfectly possible for a personal injury/negligence claim should someone else be injured as a result of a fall or whatever caused by a known medical condition where no steps have been taken to mitigate the risk. There's also legal duty placed on landowners.

I have dc with additional needs, I'm honestly not trying to be a killjoy and I think the OP should have been treated better but I can appreciate the issue.

You are giving good examples of why we have laws against disability discrimination because people like you will always find excuses to discriminate. No business has ever been sued because someone with epilepsy fell on their premises.

You think the issue in this instance is how other people might feel?

The OP's Dad is being discriminated against for his disability. That's illegal. And entirely heartless.

My DH is disabled. If we go to a pub or restaurant he will choose to transfer from his wheelchair to a seat. There is a small risk of him falling as he does so. Should he be banned from doing this @Willyoujustbequiet?

Don't be so ridiculous, my children are disabled and if you scroll through my previous history you'll find I'm a huge advocate.

I'm not sure why you would presume that disabled people are immune to being sued themselves for negligence just like anyone else. You're free to Google the case law.

As far as businesses go though you are quite wrong, they are sued all the time for such matters.. There was a multi million pound case just last year involving an epileptic fit.

Please take your ignorant comments elsewhere.

No and I have never said that. As with all legal proceedings it depends entirely on the individual circumstances and I'm sure you can appreciate that.

I think this is the best option.

The owner may well be horrified that the manager has barred your dad. I think if word got round it may well be the kiss of death for her pup and she would want to know about it and deal with it.

From the sounds of it it's the regulars that are keeping the business going, so I'm sure they won't want to piss them off

Could you point me towards that case please, I'd be interested to read it?

I believe it involved Morrisons.