Stop me from losing my shit on FB... (disability/pub/dementia)

[WiddlinDiddlin]

I am really trying to sit on my hands and as I am here, clearly failing.

My Dad is currently in hospital. He is 84 and over the last few weeks has had a few short seizures (falling over, losing control, then coming round and lucid and aware very quickly) recently, two of them in his local pub.

The current situation is that the hospital suspect epilepsy related to dementia, and think he may regain some degree of awareness/lucidity/sense and come out of hospital (though not to his own home I suspect).

For the last two/three weeks, he's been taken to his local by my sister, as he no longer drives. He had a seizure at the pub a couple of weeks back - hospital - sent home, seemed ok... (hasn't driven since about a week before that though, will not drive again, car removed etc).

He was in the pub again on Wednesday, with my sister, and had another seizure. He came round and the ambulance call was cancelled and they advised her to drive him in, so she did.

He then had another seizure at the hospital and this time they've kept him in.

Today my sisters gone back to the pub to catch up with friends of hers and his - he/they have been going there forever, since he was in his 20s and since us kids were 3/4 years old... we've known the owners, and every tenant landlord for decades (to make it clear this is not some random pub).

The current landlord has taken it upon himself to tell my sister 'we're not equipped for people having medical incidents here, don't bring him again' - after overhearing her say that he's not going to be living by himself again, or driving again, or going anywhere alone.

Now I could understand banning him for being a rude, cantankerous old goat, or a bit of an arsehole, he is/was all of those things.

But surely you cannot ban someone from a pub because they might have a medical crisis, whilst supervised by another adult.

Does that mean all disabled people are banned, everyone with an underlying health condition is banned - surely that is not ok.

No one is expecting the pub to look after him, we never have, no more than they look after the people who go there and get falling down drunk, or in floods of tears because their dog/horse/wife died/left them...

I do understand that seeing someone have a fit is pretty traumatic... but if you want to work in hospitality and run a pub, you're going to see humans being humans, surely!

I really am fucking angry - the chances are he is going into a home and at BEST we may be able to take him out for an hour or two, it would be brilliant if he could go somewhere thats part of his routine, where he's familiar with the building and theres people he knows - and now that's been taken away.

I am also fucking furious that the landlord decided to tell my sister this TODAY when he knew she was straight there from the hospital feeling pretty upset about Dad and whats happened - it's pretty much removed the one thing she was clinging to that might be close to 'normal'.

AIBU? Is this actually ok?

This is discrimination. Pure and simple. Clear firm word or tell him you will see him court.

What other industries do you think disabled people should be banned from for the preservation of sensibilities of the able-bodied?

Shops? Because someone might have a medical incident on the milk aisle in Tesco. Theatres/cinemas? Cruise ships? Flights? Have about public spaces like parks in case an unsuspecting member of the public has to see someone being a nuisance “having a fit”?

He's been a 'two pints of mild a night' guy for probably the last forty years (some nights off if he's not felt up to the pub or been doing something else but certainly for the last ten years)...

So yes there is likely some damage due to alcohol, but we're not talking 'wobbling drunk on ten pints of lager' or 'wakes up in the morning and reaches for a can/bottle of vodka' type alcoholism. He's 84... there's damage from a lot of things he's done over the years!

Hospital think its a result of dementia, age and theres some evidence of previous TIAs that he was unaware of, they're not concerned about his prior alcohol intake in that they don't think it was triggered by having a pint, OR triggered by withdrawal from larger amounts of alcohol.

I'd also absolutely understand if he was wobbling around somewhere busy, aware that alcohol/bright lights (ha, there are none of those at this place, think 'country hovel' not 'bright loud 'Spoons) triggers fits and collapsing all over the place, unsupervised by anyone competent...

But this is a chap sat on a bench outside having a smoke of his pipe, chat with whoevers out there, next to a responsible adult!

He really is only a danger to himself at this point (and that certainly hasn't been the case for most of his life, in his youth he was digging out caves, exploding stuff, exploring in exotic places, skiing black runs etc!), I;d say he is 100% less of a risk to others now than he was 20 years ago!

He’s had two seizures in the pub, he’s 84 and currently in hospital. He may never return home and may potentially have to go in to a home. It sounds like you / he have an awful lot on your plate. Worrying about the pub would be the last of my concerns. As it stands he is currently not well enough to be drinking in the pub. Just focus on getting him well. Surely for his own dignity you don’t want to risk him having another seizure in the pub?

This is discrimination on the grounds of disability (and quite possibly age too). It’s that simple. I would take the landlord to one side and quietly explain that under the Equality Act 2010 what he’s proposed is unlawful. Tell him if he doesn’t rescind it and apologise you will report him to the brewery and take further action. Once he’s done that tell him to shove his pub up his arse sideways and that you will never set foot in there again, and neither will any of your family or friends.

I would first of all have a word with the owner. Hopefully all this can be smoothed over. The tenant landlord deserves a bollocking, but in the circumstances I would settle for being able to take your dad to the pub.

If that's completely ruled out, then it may be time for the social media shaming. And worth pointing out to the regulars you know that they would presumably also be banned if they get ill... doesn't make you feel great loyalty to a place, does it?

No it couldn’t have been requested differently, however you couch it, it’s discrimination on the grounds of disability. You’re a care worker and you think that’s OK because some elements of disability are hard to look at for others ? Really ?

He deserves to have the highest quality of life that he can have and proving the hospital don't say not to, if he benefits from going to his local for a pint of alcohol free bitter and watching the world go by with interaction from people he has known for years then it isn't up to the pub to say he should not do that.

Doesn’t matter how old or young he is. He’s providing a service and he should be aware of the law concerning discrimination. If he’s not, then OP I would be making it my business to provide a short, sharp lesson on it that we won’t forget in a hurry.

I would be concerned that the alcohol is triggering the seizures. I’m very sorry that your Dad and you are in this situation, but you need to put his welfare first.

Whether or not the pub is in the wrong isn’t the most important issue. Safeguarding your Dad is.

The problem is that legally they can bar anyone for any reason. "At the managements discretion" is a thing.

Its utter shit but there isnt much you can do about it apart from leave appropriate reviews on FB etc. Maybe contact the owner and say that you are said that he has been barred for his medical issues and as a result you feel that you wont, as a family, be able to visit the pub again.

That may well make a difference.

there is no law that a service provider has to provide a service to everyone.

Is he being discriminatory? Yes. Is it morally wrong? Yes. Is it illegal to refuse to have someone in a pub that you as a manager dont want there? No.

No one is suggesting hauling him out of his hospital bed NOW and taking him in, unmedicated, liable to have another at any minute!

This is really more my sister (who is his primary carer and the one dealing with all the crap first hand) wanting to have a nice thing to focus on, aim towards, a little glimmer of hope for her more than him - one that has now been snatched from her by an ignorant and tactless twat.

IF there is a point (as I have said up thread, quite clearly) where he can safely be taken out, its likely to be very good for his mental health to do that, the pub has been his social hub for more than half his life (particularly this pub) - it's his equivalent of social media/mumsnet etc!! I am absolutely 100% aware that this may never happen. I don't think my sister wants to acknowledge that reality just yet and that's fine, if thats how she needs to cope.

Maybe the landlord is hinting that a boozer - any boozer - isn't the healthiest environment for someone who keeps having fits.

The Equality Act 2010 covers it. It protects individuals with disabilities from being discriminated against in various settings - so access to businesses, including those in the leisure industry. The act makes it illegal to discriminate against individuals based on disability, including in the provision of goods, facilities, and services like pub access.

The Equality Act also requires businesses to make reasonable adjustments to their premises or services to ensure disabled people can access them. A pub landlord might have a legitimate reason to ban someone from their premises if they pose a genuine threat, such as being violent or disruptive, but this would need to be justified and cannot legally based on a disability or health condition. OP would be perfectly within her rights to report him to the brewery, seek legal advice and take action against the landlord - and potentially the brewery.

Well he should keep his hints to himself then shouldn’t he ? They’re discriminatory.

@PyongyangKipperbang you are completely wrong. The Equalities Act includes goods and services.

proceedings have been issued on many establishments refusing to accept a groups with certain beliefs, the establishments in question having to accept booking.

@WiddlinDiddlin I would speak to licences holder and tell them you will report them to the listen ins dept of the LA if they do not withdraw this ban.

Does that mean all disabled people are banned, everyone with an underlying health condition is banned - surely that is not ok.

I think you know it doesn't mean that and that it's not just disability going on here. Right now, all they're seeing is that it's happened twice in a couple of weeks, after never happening in all the years he's been there, which is a very different thing to someone living with epilepsy long-term not related to dementia. They're probably scared of something worse happening mid-pint/pipe and not being equipped to deal with it so there's a level of risk assessment as to whether it's the best place for him to be. He sounds in a bad way, you're understandably upset, and they've not handled it well, but don't go taking it to facebook. Take some time, focus on your dad, and as you say, it's a big 'if' he'll be up to going back there anyway, but if/when he is, you can have that conversation about how he's now stabilised, medicated or whatever is going to make everyone feel easier about him going back there.

They can’t bar anyone on the grounds of any protected characteristic such as sex, race, religion or disability. It’s against the law and management discretion doesn’t apply - it’s direct discrimination on the grounds of his disability. And there is something they can do about it. They can take legal action. Personally I would take the landlord aside and tell him that he’s breaking the law, and if he doesn’t apologise and rescind immediately, inform the brewery and seek legal advice.

They don’t have to be equipped to deal with it - that’s not within their remit. He is with family who can call for medical assistance if necessary. They are discriminating on the grounds of disability and that’s unacceptable and illegal.

I don't think saying that he shouldn't be allowed to access his social support because he'll embarrass himself/be an embarrassment if his disability shows in public is a reasonable position to take.

The fact that the pub is in the wrong absolutely is the most important issue. Should he recover he may want to go back in there as it’s been his local for years. He’s 84 and OP says the seizures may well be alcohol related as he’s been a two pints a day man for years. But at 84 and with clearly not long left, would you like to be the one to tell him he can no longer do it ? I wouldn’t.

Nailed it. The landlord doesn’t want someone having a messy seizure in front of the other pub goers - who may well be happy to help and not phased by it at all. Especially if he’s well known and they understand what’s happened. Problem is OP has to deal with a twenty something twat landlord who has no empathy and who puts his bottom line above everything else, and either doesn’t know or doesn’t care about the law. He needs his arse kicking.

Sure, but in the moment, if someone (sorry but this it what they're thinking) might be dying in their pub, everyone there is gonna be affected whether it's in their remit or not. I'm not saying you're not legally correct, just advocating some understanding all round rather than losing shit at them, which is the equivalent of their over-reaction and won't get anyone what they want. A bit of time will help him to get steady and everyone to be calmer feels like a better way to me.

I’ve had seizures.

they’re pretty unpleasant and they do scare other people who witness them.

given that he’s had multiple seizures in the pub if I were the landlord I’d be worried that there was something triggering them at the pub.

i got given an office at my workplace largely because they didn’t want me having seizures in the open plan bit. It is a lot less disruptive in private (as well as nicer for me).

the pub have been very tactless but they do have a point.