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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to say that not everything can be inclusive all the time?

274 replies

Summeriscumin · 17/05/2025 17:02

A former student has asked for advice and I'm a bit stumped.

She has been running a drama club for 11 - 16 year olds in the village hall. The aim is an introduction to various theatre and circus skills.

These include vocal skills, breathing exercises, trust exercises, mime, juggling, acro, improvisation, script reading aloud, devising scenes and basic contemporary dance skills. It's been going very well and the subs are paying for the hall hire, so she isn't out of pocket.

But she's afraid she's going to have to give it up. A mum came along her son, a wheelchair user, asking to join and he was welcomed. My friend (C) explained what the sessions entailed and said there may be some that her son may not be able to participate in. Specifically she meant the energetic dance stuff and some circus skills and there was an issue with some trust exercises. - DCs have their eyes closed and move around and the wheelchair could prove dangerous.

The lad came for a couple of weeks and seemed to really enjoy it and C tried to make it as inclusive as possible without depriving the others of their skills training. They work in small groups so she always made sure there was a group he could work with.

However, this week the mother has said that her son must be included in everything or it's discrimination and that she should stop the exercises that he cannot participate in.

C says she may as well just give it up as that's just not fair on the others.

AIBU in thinking this mother is BU? I feel so sorry for C who has done her best to include the lad.

OP posts:
Gundogday · 18/05/2025 18:52

But C has already adapted other exercises to include the wheelchair user, but has simply explained that one or two cannot be adapted. She’s also not excluding him from the group and has welcomed him there.

My young adult dc, a youth leader, got several messages, missed calls etc in the space of an hour regarding a matter recently and felt harassed by them. One would have sufficed.

PopeJoan2 · 18/05/2025 19:55

Summeriscumin · 18/05/2025 09:20

what a cruel world we live in if we can’t be creative enough to get a child in a wheelchair involved in a dance class.

Except that's not what happens. He is involved in most movement/dance exercises but is not physically able to do a few. Hardly a "cruel world". But don't let the truth get in the way of you virtue signalling.

Virtue signalling? How?

Summeriscumin · 18/05/2025 20:06

PopeJoan2 · 18/05/2025 19:55

Virtue signalling? How?

By your dishonest interpretation of what is involved. You imply C is cruel and the boy left at the sidelines. Untrue.

He is involved in a lot of the dance exercises but you ignored that fact and had a go at C.

OP posts:
PopeJoan2 · 18/05/2025 21:14

Summeriscumin · 18/05/2025 20:06

By your dishonest interpretation of what is involved. You imply C is cruel and the boy left at the sidelines. Untrue.

He is involved in a lot of the dance exercises but you ignored that fact and had a go at C.

I do think that those saying she is not obliged to make concessions to include the child and that he should take it or leave it are being cruel. It is what I feel not what I am pretending to feel so it is hardly virtue signalling.

Codlingmoths · 18/05/2025 22:25

PopeJoan2 · 18/05/2025 09:10

I like this. And I am glad that you advocate so fiercely for your DC. I am with you on this.

what a cruel world we live in if we can’t be creative enough to get a child in a wheelchair involved in a dance class.

A dance and circus class. Would you say this if it were ballet? Acrobatics? Serial tumbling? She is getting him involved. Honestly this is like sending your disabled child to swimming and suing the pool because they weren’t able to join in jumping off the 3m diving board.

stichguru · 18/05/2025 22:40

Summeriscumin · 18/05/2025 15:30

You are missing the point that if someone is disabled, especially if they are obviously disabled, like being a wheelchair user, no one EXPECTS things they do as a physical activity, to be EXACTLY the same as everyone else!

Spectacularly missing the point again. The whole object of that ONE exercise is for them to move in unison with exactly the same moves, as I have explained several times. Why can you not understand that? It's to train them - not for an audience.

She is not going to run the group around the needs of one child.

Given some attitudes here maybe she should just give up.

It's funny how I'm so awful for expecting her to do something that class teachers do ALL the time. You really think that a reception teacher would get amazing praise because

  • although the 2 children who came in knowing how to count to 10, didn't know how to do any other maths, the others could count to 10!
  • although the children who came in not knowing how to write any letters still couldn't, the others could write some simple sentences.
Having different learners doing activities which work together, but fits their needs and includes EVERYONE'S needs, is literally what a decent teacher does EVERYDAY!
MrsFrumble · 18/05/2025 23:17

Reception teachers are paid, trained professionals. OP’s friend is a volunteer. I don’t know so many people are missing or ignoring this point. As she’s not getting paid it’s up to her to decide the limits of what she can and can’t offer in her class.

5foot5 · 19/05/2025 01:10

stichguru · 18/05/2025 22:40

It's funny how I'm so awful for expecting her to do something that class teachers do ALL the time. You really think that a reception teacher would get amazing praise because

  • although the 2 children who came in knowing how to count to 10, didn't know how to do any other maths, the others could count to 10!
  • although the children who came in not knowing how to write any letters still couldn't, the others could write some simple sentences.
Having different learners doing activities which work together, but fits their needs and includes EVERYONE'S needs, is literally what a decent teacher does EVERYDAY!

And they get paid for it because it is their job.

Have you missed that this woman is doing this in her spare time for nothing as a volunteer? So if this turns into a difficult issue then nobody could blame her for just closing down the club and walking away.

Shame for all the kids who are getting so much out of the activity but, hey, better that than one being a little bit left out.

Tbrh · 19/05/2025 02:02

stichguru · 18/05/2025 22:40

It's funny how I'm so awful for expecting her to do something that class teachers do ALL the time. You really think that a reception teacher would get amazing praise because

  • although the 2 children who came in knowing how to count to 10, didn't know how to do any other maths, the others could count to 10!
  • although the children who came in not knowing how to write any letters still couldn't, the others could write some simple sentences.
Having different learners doing activities which work together, but fits their needs and includes EVERYONE'S needs, is literally what a decent teacher does EVERYDAY!

To be fair if your kid is 5 and can't count to 10, doesn't know the alphabet or can't write their own name, then that's an indication of a very shit parent who hasn't bothered to teach their child some very basics

PopeJoan2 · 19/05/2025 02:40

Codlingmoths · 18/05/2025 22:25

A dance and circus class. Would you say this if it were ballet? Acrobatics? Serial tumbling? She is getting him involved. Honestly this is like sending your disabled child to swimming and suing the pool because they weren’t able to join in jumping off the 3m diving board.

itt isn’t analogous at all. And yes I would say the same for ballet etc, especially given that this is a community class and not some kind of conservatoire.

Tbrh · 19/05/2025 02:43

PopeJoan2 · 19/05/2025 02:40

itt isn’t analogous at all. And yes I would say the same for ballet etc, especially given that this is a community class and not some kind of conservatoire.

I think you'd find ballet would be near impossible in a wheelchair, surely you can't be serious? Ballet is so strict, not only with the skills but even with their body types. I know this as my friends daughter wanted to be a dancer but couldn't make it past a certain level.

Codlingmoths · 19/05/2025 02:54

PopeJoan2 · 19/05/2025 02:40

itt isn’t analogous at all. And yes I would say the same for ballet etc, especially given that this is a community class and not some kind of conservatoire.

If you’d say the same for ballet then I give up. The basic principles of ballet are first standing correctly and then your turnout.

GarlicPile · 19/05/2025 03:50

Some people here are absolutely determined to see this as a 'fun dance' class, despite OP having painstakingly described what C teaches.

She's aiming to hone the skills young people would need to progress in physical performance. She's pushing them to move in precise unison because the discipline is crucial. Waffling on about adapting the routines and/or letting one member perform something entirely different misses the point.

OP says that some of the kids opt out of that due to claimed dyspraxia, which should've been enough of a clue to the rigours of this segment. She's training participants to move their whole bodies in structured, meticulously regulated positions. Some people's bodies don't lend themselves to meticulous regulation (mine doesn't, for one). This segment isn't for those people, any more than perfumery training would be for people with anosmia.

I've lost track of why the 'dance' element became so important here but, if the boy's interest does mainly lean that way, he'd be best served by a freestyle/improvisational style like street dance.

C's already made some adjustments for her newest class member, she's already come up with some different ways of doing things. She's doing enough.

sashh · 19/05/2025 04:52

TheOriginalEmu · 17/05/2025 18:54

You’ve asked a bunch of able bodied people. That’s like asking a bunch of men if it’s unreasonable for women to take time off during their period.

I'm not able bodied.

Oh and just because you use a wheelchair does not make you an expert on what every wheelchair user can or can't do. People are individuals.

PopeJoan2 · 19/05/2025 07:10

Tbrh · 19/05/2025 02:43

I think you'd find ballet would be near impossible in a wheelchair, surely you can't be serious? Ballet is so strict, not only with the skills but even with their body types. I know this as my friends daughter wanted to be a dancer but couldn't make it past a certain level.

And those criteria are being challenged all the time these days. eg. ÀBallet training used to exclude exquisite black dancers because their bodies didn’t fit. Nowadays we find that language abhorrent.

And I am a little confused. Is OP’s friend offering rigorous professional dance training or just a fun class for young people in the local community? If she wants to do the former she could advertise her class as a rigorous preparation for conservatoire training
sp that random local kids do not turn up.

PopeJoan2 · 19/05/2025 07:28

I had lost sight of the original query so read OP’s first post again. I do not believe the mother is being obtuse in her request. It sounds as though the teacher offers such a variety of activities that she can cut some of the stuff that would exclude the wheelchair user and still provide useful skills/be fun for the young people. The question is why would she be reluctant to do that? The young people would probably be happy to do whatever she gives them and would be none the wiser, which means that this issue could essentially be about the teacher’s wants and desires.

I also suspect that this issue is an issue about communication.

TheNightingalesStarling · 19/05/2025 07:58

PopeJoan2 · 19/05/2025 07:10

And those criteria are being challenged all the time these days. eg. ÀBallet training used to exclude exquisite black dancers because their bodies didn’t fit. Nowadays we find that language abhorrent.

And I am a little confused. Is OP’s friend offering rigorous professional dance training or just a fun class for young people in the local community? If she wants to do the former she could advertise her class as a rigorous preparation for conservatoire training
sp that random local kids do not turn up.

The existence of specialist dance classes for those with disabilities doesn't mean that every dance class is inclusive.

pinkdelight · 19/05/2025 08:34

It sounds as though the teacher offers such a variety of activities that she can cut some of the stuff that would exclude the wheelchair user and still provide useful skills/be fun for the young people. The question is why would she be reluctant to do that?

Possibly because she isn't doing the class 100% out of pure altruism and wants to teach what she wants to teach, which sounds very specific in this particular part of it, and if it's her class and she's making it happen, that's up to her.

Summeriscumin · 19/05/2025 09:10

Once the class was established and there were "regulars" C asked them what they wanted to do in the classes. And she planned around that.

She was lucky enough to be able to use some equipment stored at the hall for some activities. Other groups have offered the use of their equipment as well. It's that kind of place.

They do a warm up together and then split into small groups to work on a specific activity. These change for the second half. Some of the older girls want to join the musical theatre group - hence this exercise that seems to be annoying some people.

I'm former drama teacher and that exercise was part of my training in the last century. it's a good one for many reasons as already outlined.

To cut everything the lad can't do is limiting the opportunity of every other class member. If this is the way the world is going it will be a very bland place. No more aiming for excellence because some people can't take part? Not a world I want to be part of.

OP posts:
Rhaidimiddim · 19/05/2025 10:46

Tbrh · 19/05/2025 02:02

To be fair if your kid is 5 and can't count to 10, doesn't know the alphabet or can't write their own name, then that's an indication of a very shit parent who hasn't bothered to teach their child some very basics

Or has a learning disability.

In which case, it would be a rubbish teacher who then tailored all their teaching to the abilities of that one child (as is being asked in the OP's scenario).

blubbyblub · 19/05/2025 14:50

Tbrh · 19/05/2025 02:02

To be fair if your kid is 5 and can't count to 10, doesn't know the alphabet or can't write their own name, then that's an indication of a very shit parent who hasn't bothered to teach their child some very basics

Good grief. Has it never occurred to you that a child you are describing may have a learning difference/difficulty and isn’t due to crap parenting? 🤦🏻‍♀️

PopeJoan2 · 19/05/2025 16:52

This is fascinating (and inspiring)

Company That Includes People With Disabilities | Refinery29

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://youtu.be/Wjg1hwgSNVk?feature=shared

PopeJoan2 · 19/05/2025 17:17

And this. I remember seeing a beautiful performance some years ago at the Southbank in London.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://youtu.be/tdZsP79d8Yo?feature=shared

Summeriscumin · 19/05/2025 17:19

I wish all kids' drama groups could get that kind of funding.

OP posts:
PopeJoan2 · 19/05/2025 17:34

Summeriscumin · 19/05/2025 17:19

I wish all kids' drama groups could get that kind of funding.

I posted to show what is possible. At the very least the teacher could show these clips to the dancers in the class.

if they really can’t include the child in the wheelchair (and presumably others) they should make it clear that the class is selective and hold auditions.