Mayflower primary school - nappy changing facilities for school aged children

[2011j]

AIBU to think this shouldn't be necessary?

Not including those with sen, children should be potty trained before starting school - AIBU?

We temporarily relocated to the US when DC was 2.5. As part of preparation to go DC needed to be potty trained to be in room allocated at US Montessori Kindergarden. At the time, very few children in DCs nursery were trained that early. Nursery were very helpful though and made the process work well. There was one awful week of wet clothing when UK nursery said 'don't give up' and it was good advice. Once we arrived in the US, DC was one of the younger ones in the room. I was there for the first morning and almost the first thing I saw was one of older ones (circa 3:5) leaning on the water play table obvs making a poo face 🤣.

School starts later in the US, but I don't recall many kids having accidents in school. In pre school there were a few, in the kindergarden room it wasn't uncommon.

Contemporaries whose children started reception in the UK at 4 seemed to have their kids toilet trained but some still had accidents.

This was 15 years ago when the average age for potty training seemed to be 3-3.5 in the UK. I don't think that I've ever encountered a child in primary school with a nappy or training pants here or US. Times must have changed.

I'm 60 and I was potty trained at around 16 months. No idea what the science for that was but the practicalities would have had something to do with cloth nappies or the high cost of the then quite new fangled disposibles.

I'm sure it's a range of things:

• some people struggling with teaching their children things like you suggest
• more children not being in a family environment for as long. Even if you are an excellent nursery or childminder, fully registered for children from 6 or 9 months, they won't get the same attention as they would have got at home with an adult one-to-one or one-to-two. Not knocking childcare settings or working parents, but a childcarer working towards the needs of several kids, can't prioritise getting one kid trained. Something like nose blowing - when one child needs it, you sit with them and help them until they get it, you can't do that while others need other things.
• More children with disabilities or difficulties going into mainstream who previously would have been in specialist settings, either due to lack of specialist provision available, or more positively because given that mainstream is able to meet most of their needs, they are able to go there and the toileting issues dealt with.
• Sounds a bit dramatic, but better health care meaning more children survive complicated births and then have disabilities that impact toilet training, instead of dying of their birth complications. (43 years ago I was a tiny baby at just 5 pounds and a month prem. 38 years later a friend's son was a tiny baby at 2 pounds something and 3 months prem. He would 99% have been a died at birth if he'd been born 38 years previous.)

There have been click bait newspaper articles about this since I started teaching (2003) snd in ten years it will be more of the same.

Some of the children will have SEN, diagnosed or otherwise, and need support in accessing what’s available.

Some of the children will be from chaotic and struggling households and they will also need support.

There will be some crossover in the above.

And it was ever thus.

Different parenting style? I read something yesterday 2here a mother scolded her own mother for wiping her gd’s face while eating. Aparently, it’s de rigeur to ‘let her explore her food’. Crazy-I taught my kids from early on to have table manners and use cutlery. It’s very child led now, same with changing to pants. Kids don’t have uncomfortable nappies anymore so why should they lead? It was completely normal when mine were young for them to use a potty/toilet from around 2-2 and a half. I’m talking the majority of kids here, not ones who need extra support.

My MIL - who passed away recently, aged 90 - was a 3lb baby and regarded as a miracle.

Re potty training, my DS was pretty good with that but he was so tiny that the EYFS requirement to zip up coat and undo/do up buttons was a challenge

^ Great post.

But re. "Massive increase in the number of children with special needs", why is this? Is there an actual increase in the number of children with special needs, or did these children previously attend alternative provision that doesn't exist anymore? I know it's been discussed here on MN before, but I'd love a definitive answer as it's clearly an issue for school staff (my friend is a TA).

Re. not being toilet trained until 3-4 (if not special needs, obviously). I have no words, this beggars belief. What on earth is going on?

“they are not ready”

'Gentle' parenting approaches aim to avoid conflict or frustration, which can lead to fewer clear boundaries and routines. This, in turn, can delay the development of independence and self-regulation.

So, some parents believe their child isn’t ready for toilet training, but children don’t always become ready on their own. Like learning to walk or ride a bike, using the toilet is a skill that requires patience, encouragement, routine, and consistent practice. Equally, some parents delay starting because they worry about resistance, mess, or stress. Modern conveniences like pull-ups and wipes can also make it feel easier to postpone training, even when a child is capable of learning.

Waiting too long can make the process more difficult, especially if the child becomes comfortable and reliant on nappies.

Excessive screen time means today’s children are growing up surrounded by smartphones, tablets, and streaming content from a very young age. This constant digital stimulation reduces their tolerance for boredom, shortens attention spans, and limits their ability to engage in independent or imaginative play. It can also interfere with body awareness, when children spend long periods focused on screens, they may become less attuned to physical signals like needing the toilet.

Many 6 and 7 year-olds are unable to sit still, follow instructions, or engage appropriately in the classroom. Too many children have not been properly socialised during their early years and, as a result, they are simply not ready for the structure and expectations of school life. This is made worse by permissive parenting styles, where boundaries are not clearly defined, and by excessive screen time, which impacts attention span, emotional regulation, and social development. The result is a growing number of children starting school without the basic skills they need to succeed.

This shift places enormous pressure on teachers and schools diverting resources away from learning and toward behaviour management and basic care.

This ultimately costs society as a whole, both financially and in terms of human potential. But as long as we can all numb ourselves with screens, instant gratification, and endless on-demand content, it seems easier to ignore the long-term consequences.

I was chatting with my primary school head teacher brother in law recently. He said since Covid there are many parents who just can’t be bothered parenting as well as children to have got over the isolation of lockdown during those vital months of child development. He has children starting school who are in nappies, can’t hold a pen, can’t write their name, don’t respond to their names. Also children who don’t have the core strength to sit for periods of time and are unable to change themselves for PE.

A girl in DDs class came for a play date and was in a nappy. Mum didn’t tell me and to be honest I don’t want to change someone else’s child. I’ll be honest, it never occurred to me until then how common it has become. In part it’s definitely SEN kids in mainstream school, but partly it’s just parents who don’t know how or in some cases can’t be arsed. I have a large family so I’ve been around nieces and nephews potty training, so I could go to my family for advice, support and help, lots of people don’t have that. I think reading online forums and advice is great, but advice and support from real people (family or professionals in the community) is better and there’s less of a barrier.

Are you a teacher. I ask because you’ve perfectly articulated my head teacher BIL’s take on the current situation.

Yes, I think probably they waited too long.

But that is the kind of thinking that has come out from the AP movement as far as I can see - they take the same approach to sleep issues.

The idea is that when kids are "ready" they will easily and naturally toilet train, sleep through the night, etc. So parents try, it's hard, and they give up thinking the child isn't developmentally ready yet. A lot are also being told that a child can't train until at least 3.

I think routine is a big deal as well, it's very difficult to pay attention enough when you only have a few hours together and it's during the morning and evening routine, and weekends. It's just not enough time for many children, and some nurseries will not really help.

Once they are as old as 4 they are used to having a diaper and don't much care, and are more able to be oppositional.

@TempestTost "know their phone number and last name, that kind of thing. People no longer seem to do this as often (I see kids of 9 quite regularly in my job who do not know their phone number, more than half in a class typically!)"

Yes, but a generation ago people had landline phones, with a 5 (sometimes 6 or 7) digit number to remember (so long as calling within the same area, which the school would be), today they've got mobiles with an 11 digit number to remember. I'm a grown adult and the difference between a 5 digit and an 11 digit number is the difference between instantly memorising and having to learn.

Both my daughters could use the toilet, wipe, use cutlery, blow their noses, sit in a chair, listen etc.. before they started school.
Both parents working.
No additional 'village' help.
One with SEN one without.

It's not hard. It's basic parenting.

It wouldn’t surprise me if a decent portion of a class of 9 year olds don’t have a phone number. So if you ask them “who knows their phone number” I don’t find it surprising that not many say yes.
We don’t have a landline, our DC won’t have a phone number until they get their own phones. It’s never really occurred to me to teach them mine and DH’s numbers, but they are only 5 & 3.

Yes, they should. Unless there are special needs, this is just lazy parenting.

How does safeguarding now work when teachers are told never to touch a child?

They probably don't have landline but too many have their own phone and
even their own social media handle.

Surely schools should have changing facilities for SEN children anyway so what does it matter?

My son became disabled due to cancer, he's now bowel incontinent and I'm very grateful that his school already had the facilities needed so he didn't have to not only go through something traumatic but also change schools as well.

That YOUR experience of what worked better for YOU. My experience differs and I found Surestart invaluable.

Risk assessments in place in each school/setting/nursery.

There are clear guidelines as part of the EY Framework. Sometimes children have to be changed ‘half in half out’ of the bathroom area, so that the adult can be seen and so that they can oversee other children whilst they do the changing.

Perfect storm, less budget, less staff, more needs and soiled children to change.

In the nineties, when my children were little, they had to be potty trained in order to start preschool at 2.5. If they weren’t they couldn’t go. It was as simple as that, so the vast majority of people, SN asides, had their children out of nappies by then. DS2 started school, full time, at 3yrs 8mths, in 2000. He’d been out of nappies for well over a year, was able to get changed for PE, put his coat on and do up his zip by himself, and sort himself out on the toilet.

When I went to work in a preschool, in the early 2000s we couldn’t not take children who weren’t potty trained so the manager changed the start date from 2yrs 9mths to 3yrs. The vast majority of children were out of nappies by then. It was very rare we had one that wasn’t, tbh.

My son struggled with toilet training, we got there aged about 3 but this was because I knew he was constipated and knew what the implications were for toilet training. I knew this because with my first child Surestart and Health Visitors were readily available to talk to and seek advice which I was then able to use with my next child.

Edited to add that my first child was toilet trained well before two. Exactly the same approach and exactly the same level of effort (in fact a LOT more effort to get there with my second) so luckily the 'lazy parenting' insults don't really bother me.

I agree and said similar up thread. About 2% of children were turned away at 3 years old as they couldn't start in nappies.

Children/people/human development hasn't changed in the last twenty or thirty years so something else has.

I think a lot of people do go for a child-led approach and want to wait until the child is "ready". Or else if it's not cracked in a weekend they interpret it as not being ready.

With both of mine I seemed to hit a point just before they turned 2 where I started to really hate changing nappies. I wasn't fussed about whether they were ready, I wanted an end to it and went cold turkey. It took longer than most people are prepared to do it and there was lots of mess but I still preferred it to shitty nappies.

My son has an intimate care plan at school. This is a plan with 2 named people who are allowed to change him when he soils himself all signed by us to give their consent.