Mayflower primary school - nappy changing facilities for school aged children

[2011j]

AIBU to think this shouldn't be necessary?

Not including those with sen, children should be potty trained before starting school - AIBU?

I have a friend who is a primary school teacher. She hasn’t had problems in her school but it is something that other teachers are experiencing - not from SEN but from lack of engagement with their child’s needs. For my kids toilet training was straightforward as I put the effort in. I have a large family so there was a baby on the way so I needed to get my 1.5 years to before 2yrs out of nappies asap. Once my youngest was born I had no baby on the way. It was so easy as she was motivated to be out of nappies. I liked the cost savings from not needing pull-ups. Your points are valid but be careful you aren’t excusing the can’t be bothered parents. This isn’t just for toilet training but covers all aspects of child rearing.

In 1999, my DD started to show signs of having special needs. She went to a main stream nursery. It quickly became apparent that she wouldn't cope with main stream school. She was switched to a special needs nursery, she also needed her glue ear sorting out. She then easily went into appropriate SEN primary and high schools. In 2004, the plan was to make more schools inclusive and close the SEN provisions. I was part of the campaign, even held up banners in the street. MPs got involved. No-one listened, schools became inclusive and as the years went by, increased their input into safeguarding etc, all with inadequate funding or support.

Then we got a Conservative government who, loved equality, so equally starved all services of funding.
There's increased social issues, increased population, which we could argue about all day. But it meant increased pressure on all services.

In my elder GC case, the incontinence team wouldn't look at her issues until 7 years old. She wasn't diagnosed with a MPA and there were only so much laxatives they would give, which meant constant overflow, so she was in nappies until 7/8, until hospital got involved.

In my youngest GC case, Covid has meant that only last year, her dyspraxia and moderate hearing loss has been properly addressed.
There was a much better system for hidden ( higher functioning) disabilities, twenty years ago. There are children in my GC school who would have been in SEN settings and would actually be doing better. Those schools were closed.
These articles need to state what referrals have been made, because if a child isn't potty trained because of laziness, a CIN referral needs to start. But they love to blame parents for the lack of provision.

@ButterCrackers so they are going down the child protection route? Or is this still say so. I had to really advocate for my GC, because of a lack of understanding by the teachers. It will be interesting if in a couple of years if those children get diagnoses. For younger primary school children, they are still feeling the effects of no GP, incontinence etc appointments during and after Covid.

I wonder if the need for toilet changing spaces in school for inclusion reasons has blurred the lines a bit for some parents of children without SEN.

I can remember being told very firmly by my mother that at school I was expected to go to the toilet by myself and that the teachers weren't there to help me with toileting (I was fully trained but I think I went through a phase where I wanted a grown up with me or something). The idea of sending a child in who still needed nappies changing was unthinkable to my parents generation.

You don't have those clear boundaries anymore now that schools are inclusive and I think some parents are taking the mickey.

Yes, I do. As a fellow parent you’d be really surprised because they’re not going to admit it. Children with diagnosed needs or clearly some needs that are undiagnosed or have a medical condition are easy to spot and different to those with parents who can’t be bothered.

Ive had parents tell me they’ve tried, their child isn’t ready at 4! Once I’ve made it clear to parents and child they are expected to try it’s amazing how quickly they get it!

The problem is the people wanting to pin this on a parenting issue while discounting social issues in the cases of genuine neglect, SEN, lack of provision for SEN education, lack of available resourcesto diagnose early etc etc

I disagree. The problem is people wanting to pin everything on SEN while discounting the role parents have to play in teaching their children to use the toilet and perform basic self help skills.

Or maybe we need to be asking what the fuck is in the water that we have so many more children with SEN than we did 20 years ago.

I agree that SEN will account for som children still being in nappies at 4 and not being ready for school, but it also needs to be remembered that SEN isn’t an excuse not to toilet train. Many children with SEN in mainstream school will physically develop in line with their peers, so while it might be harder to teach them, it is not impossible.

It's not about excusing anyone, the changing facilities will be primarily for children with ASN, diagnosed or not.

The fact this will help some children who are suffering neglect at home is only a positive to me. Are there neglectful parents? Parents who can't be bothered? Parents who don't know how? Probably do you think your judgement helps? My eldest has ASN and was potty trained not long after turning 2. He has other support needs though. Which I am sure I am blamed and judged for too. He's only recently been able to wipe himself at 7. Prior to that he held all day I told he got home and ran to the bathroom. He once, once in 2 years, pooed at school, and there was noone to help. We got a phonecall and had to pick up and incredibly distressed boy who had done all he could but left a mess that needed cleaned up. He was beside himself. And none of that was not being bothered, it was tight muscles from recurring prolonged seizures, differences in growth from hormonal issues, it was a child with serious sensory sensory issues for whom the though of getting poo on himself was and remains massively distressing but he does it and it took years, actual years of getting him there.

In a school with changing facilities and someone to help my son would have been saved that indignity that he still talks about months later. I can assure you we aren't lazy and don't not care and dedicated our whole lives to getting him independent. And noone knew he had that issue because he IS embarrassed he did work so hard and still it took time to be able to wipe himself after a poo. And my son has dedicated loving parents. Why wouldn't you want a child without that to have support on school.

What is wrong with people

Do you have kids in school? How many kids in their class are not potty trained? And have no ASN?

This is AI generated but I'm sure you could look in more detail if you fancy googling

I’m not calling you a loser parent at all.
What you need to realise is that there are loser parents who can’t be bothered / nothing to do with SEN, disability. This is sad and awful for the kids. Drugs, alcohol, violence get in the way of parenting and then there’s the just can’t be bothered to parent parent. It’s sad.

That depends on the level of SEN as special school provision varies massively across the UK
For some children it may well be impossible to train them if they have a significant level of SEN.

I think that is just luck. I started potty training my daughter at two. She absolutely refused to sit on it. She wouldn't actually even do it until past three. I didnt start too late at all. She was a stubborn toddler and now a stubborn seven year old.

I don't see the point of trying to keep potty training when they are having multiple accidents versus waiting and then being able to not have accidents. I saw someone say their two year old was potty trained and yet needed reminding constantly to go for a wee. I don't class that as potty trained myself. My three year old boy will rip his nappy off constantly, be dry for quite a while in pants but not yet had a wee in the potty. I think doing it earlier wouldn't have worked for us.

For me it was hating the nappies. I'd much rather have them in pants and deal with the accidents and constant toilet reminders than have another year of changing nappies.

Likewise plus the expense

Some people on this thread have absolutely questioned children with disabilities getting changed at mainstream schools though, including yourself.

I'm not sure anyone loves changing nappies.

That's going to depend on the child's needs.

My son is physically disabled but this didn't happen until he was 8 and he was potty trained before starting school. His bowel was permanently damaged due to a complication of an illness and he will now always need to be changed multiple times a day at school.

He has no learning disabilities so can access mainstream education, he just needs that bit of extra support. Special school wouldn't suit his educational needs.

Well it's clearly a preference in some of the cases of later training.

And if those kids come to school needing their bums changed it's not the kids fault. They should be able to attend school in a dignified manner. Or as dignified a manner as possible. Why don't you want to support kids already suffering horrible home lives?

Do you know someone in that position?

Several but how else do you explain the rise in potty training age? Children with disabilities have always existed. Some people must find using nappies more convenient or why else would you leave it longer? Maybe because disposables are easier than the Terry's.

How agressive! Of course kids need support but this starts with the parents not the teachers. You clearly can’t understand that kids need help before they get to school.

No not at all. I’ve clearly spoken about non SEN kids as this is what the thread is about.

I absolutely do, but if those kids don't get that support then what? We ban the children from receiving an education? Their parents have let them down so we wash our hands of them?