To ask you all the take a minute to look at the proposed Green Paper on work & welfare, particularly the cuts to PIP.

[MarvellousMonsters]

The Government has published a green paper which amongst other things proposes to change the PIP eligibility, which will ‘save £5b’ by removing financial
support from those who don’t score 4 points in a single criteria in the daily living component of PIP.

green paper in full

It’s estimated that it can cost up to £1000 a month in extra living expenses as a disabled person, and the daily living allowance of PIP is designed to help towards these costs. The lowest rate is £72.65 a week, (£290.60 a month) and this is a literal life line to those who have a limited capability for work, are ‘not disabled enough’ to qualify for full support, but do need help. It allows people to pay for things like cleaners and domestic help, to buy ready prepped veg etc to allow them to eat proper healthy food, to heat their home if they have poor body temp control, and so on. The proposed changes will push these people into acute poverty, and also reduce their quality of life, not just financially, but because being in receipt of PIP makes people eligible for other types of practical support.

You may feel this isn’t something that affects you, but disability can happen to anyone, as those previous fit healthy people who are now incapacitated by Long Covid can confirm. You could be in a car accident, or become sick, it could literally happen to anyone, so this truly does concern everyone, even if you are currently able-bodied and well.

Please, if you do nothing else, please fill in the consultation form and lobby the DWP not to introduce the ‘4 point rule’. If you only do that you’ll help thousands of people who are currently at risk of losing vital support.

consultation form

TLDR: please tell Liz Kendall not to remove vital welfare support from disabled people.

Exactly this.

I think the mistake that people make is assuming that the level of public spending can always rise to meet the perceived level of need in the population. They can't imagine a world where people are worse off and needs aren't met like they have been in the latter half of the 20th century and the early 2000s. In a way it is a very privileged perspective and one that the majority of the world's population wouldn't recognise. They don't have a large state and welfare state that they assume must provide them with a certain quality of life. They know money trees don't exist and that you can't just tax rich people and businesses infinitely.

So I ask you OP, where does the money come from to cover our spiralling welfare bill? Don't suggest a wealth tax (won't work) or a cop out like that, what policy rooted in reality would you impose?

What's terrifying is not being able to wash your own hair or the bottom half of your body wouldn't score 4 points in pip its only 2 so I hope the general public don't mind smelly people because when people can no longer pay for their carers this is exactly what will happen. And this is the level of disability the government think is acceptable to work a full time job with

I don't understand how anyone is able to claim anything. I injured my back badly a couple of months ago. I'm self employed and have a fit note from my GP signing me off for a month. I tried to claim ESA and my experience has been a nightmare. I've never claimed anything before and never will again after this. I still haven't received any money. I ring the DWP and am left for over an hour before anyone even answers the phone. Everyone tells me something different and it's so frustrating. I've paid the relevant NI and have a fit note from a GP. What else am I supposed to do? The DWP aren't fit for purpose.

Well in the words of those on the subject of cutting WFA and applying VAT on school fees - savings have to be made somewhere. It's different when you find your own social group affected.

Honestly, most disabled people would love to work (me included). BUT forcing it and removing vital benefits is not the way to implement it.

Some people rely on their PIP to provide their Motability car. Remove the PIP, no car, no way to get to work.

Applying for PIP or Limited Capacity to Work involves so much stress already, threatening removal of PIP on this ridiculous 4 point rule adds such an increase its ridiculous.

There has been previous instances of disabled people dying due to austerity (eg the diabetic man who died because he couldn't keep his fridge running or feed himself), and we should be looking at extending the safety net before adding on help to get into work.

Don't threaten removal of benefits. Encourage and help return to work. PIP shouldn't be means-tested, there are so many things that cost disabled people that able-bodied people dont have. UC is means-tested, by all means have a sliding scale that allows disabled people returning to work to gradually reduce their reliance on the state.
Just font take their PIP.

The problem here is that the rate of claiming disability benefits has skyrocketed in the UK but not in any other country. This has coincided with the move to phone rather than in-person assessments and advice on what to fill in to tick the boxes for payment.

People online say that the form should be filled in to describe a typical day as your worst day, which is simply fraud. If this was an insurance claim, people would be prosecuted for this.

And I say this as a parent of a child with ASD and ADHD. We used to claim DLA but stopped as it just felt wrong as he did not cost us more than our other child. Yes, there are some costs he has than my other child does not have. But overall he is massively cheaper as he does not do the expensive activities and socializing that the other one does.

It is great to restrict this to the people it was originally intended for which is those most in need.

Thanks for the link OP. Have submitted my views

It's not perceived need though at this point - there have been so many rounds of stripping back the welfare state and chucking progressively more disabled people off benefits that we're now at the point of removing benefits from people who need help to wash below the waist or need full time carers. Other countries pay vastly more welfare so it's clearly not impossible. The UN and Amnesty International have already spoken out about the abuses and horrors of the UK system - something that every other similar wealthy country (possibly bar the USA) has managed to avoid. Why can't we do better? Everywhere else is doing better and often on a similar national income level. Austerity doesn't work. It disables people further or disables people who wouldn't have otherwise been disabled. That's why we're seeing such high rates of disability compared to other countries to begin with. These cuts are the British (or English) continuing to self harm.

@UnbeatenMum I disagree. You're viewing unemployment as temporary, which is quite often isn't. If you live in an area with few opportunities then that might never change.

There are huge groups who will be long term unemployed, maybe due to lack of education, geography, age or chronic health issues.

What I disagree with is that some people get to live a reasonable life with several extra benefits with the same issues that many others have and go to work with, or cannot find work. Chronic illnesses including back pain , mental health issues,- the working/non working population also live with these (and they don't get PIP/LWCRA).

It is not fair and it should change.

But you grouping things together when no 2 people are the same saying someone can work with mh conditions so everyone can work with mh conditions is just a ridiculous statement. Mh conditions and mental illness are very very different thinks.

There's also a push by government, on non government support bodies, to support (push) those with severe disabilities, chronic conditions.... into work. So UK government, can you produce the list of living wage job roles available, the employer's names, who have suitable, logistically accessible roles for those who struggle to cope with daily functioning, let alone work?

I'm saying that you can take 2 people with the same condition who experience very different access to work/benefits/assistance

1 person has an established job or career that can be adapted to fit with their condition ; they have a sympathetic employer and are paid well.. They are wealthy professional class and they work from home ,they are economically valuable enough for their employer to help them. They have enough education to be able to fill out forms or to contact disability groups that can help them meet the requirements. They come from wealthy family who encourage them to take what is offered whilst financially supporting them to obtain housing.

The other may be only suitable for less skilled work - minimum wage/precarious work/ zero hour contract which is physically demanding. Their employers are entirely unsympathetic and expect them to turn up whether they are unwell or not. If they don't work they don't get paid. Eventually their employer stops giving them work and they go on UC. They lack education and come from a culture which makes them ashamed to claim benefits, stating work ethic. They have no idea about disability groups and when shown the forms by the job centre they cannot work them out and/or minimise their difficulties. Their family cannot help them financially and they struggle massively to find housing as a single individual.

Who needs the extra money more?

PIP should be means tested. Otherwise the wealthy, educated individuals win (again) and the poor less educated lose (again)

Why can't we fight for better support for everyone? The UK has one of the lowest tax burdens in the OECD and the average Brit goes on 4 holidays a year, 2 of them international. Many above average income brits go on 5, 6 or 7 holidays a year according to recent travel industry research. That's before you even put the super wealthy into the equation. There is enough money to help people in both scenarios. Of course the second scenario person deserves vastly more help but it shouldn't be taken from the disabled person when there are other sources of finance. Loads of other OECD countries can and do sustain a vastly higher tax rate and the UN haven't had to speak out about how they're treating their disabled people as a result.

Not to mention that the cost of means testing everyone would wipe out the money saved by denying it to the person in the first scenario. There aren't very many people in that kind of scenario anyway.

Look at why so many are on pip and fix that.

1 person has an established job or career that can be adapted to fit with their condition ; they have a sympathetic employer and are paid well.. They are wealthy professional class and they work from home ,they are economically valuable enough for their employer to help them. They have enough education to be able to fill out forms or to contact disability groups that can help them meet the requirements. They come from wealthy family who encourage them to take what is offered whilst financially supporting them to obtain housing.

I highly doubt that there are lots of people claiming PIP in this situation though. It would hardly be worth the stress of applying imo.

How about not rigidly stick to self imposed 'fiscal rules' and accept that tax rises have to happen?

''@LadyKenya · Today 14:32

Excuse me, I was not talking about PIP, I did not mention it at all. I know that PIP is not an out of work benefit though, thank you. It is not me calling for these changes, so direct your ire at the people that actually have the power!''

You are literally commenting on a thread about cuts to PIP...

We can't support everyone because we are broke.

We have more and more and more people who need to be supported - unwell, disabled, unemployed, pensioners, asylum seekers, prisoners. children, low wage individuals.

When everyone needs help and you do not have the resources to help everyone, you have to triage it - only those with the greatest need get the help.

Others will have to make do.

There are too many people claiming PIP . It's not coming from some special government source, its tax payer funded and our taxes are already high. The government have already closed most tax loop holes and the easy answer of tax the wealthy isn't going to work.
The wealthy already pay a disproportionate amount of tax.
We cannot escape the fact that our welfare bill is too high.
My standard of living is falling because I'm
paying too much tax, and it is not protected .

We are only broke because our taxes are so low compared to other OECD countries.

@LadyKenya In which case means testing won't be a problem then.

People with large amounts of assets/savings/income should not get PIP

I think if PIP was to be means tested then it should be the just the individual claiming it. I don't think the household should be means tested. For some disabled people, PIP is all they have because their spouse earns too much.

@WeylandYutani That would be ridiculous - if you have a wealthy family/spouse then they are the first people who should be helping you.

Why should strangers help you when your family won't?