To think voting for assisted dying legalisation could be a huge mistake???

[MyLimeGuide]

In Scotland they are voting to legalise assisted dying. Looking likely to pass. I am worried this will come to England now. Kier is already proving he doesn't care about old and disabled people so this scares me.
Obviously there are 2 sides but how can people be so ignorant? If passed this could be one of the biggest opportunity for corrupt evil behaviour of saving money on the NHS, care, people literally getting away murder, playing god! No not good. It's so scary.

I am so conflicted over this.

My MIL is end stage dementia and has been in a care home for 7 years. She has muscle contracture for which she is heavily medicated, pretty much locked in a near foetal position. She stopped recognising anyone over 5 years ago. She is a tiny scrap of a thing. She had recently started having seizures for which she us now medicated. There are indicators she may have some form of bowel cancer. I have H&W POA and I have agreed with doctors that investigation of this would be too traumatic and so would any treatment. The emphasis on all sides is on comfort and dignity.

When we cared for her at home, and she still had awareness of her diagnosis she begged for help in ending her life, but of course, that was not an option. The emphasis on "living well" despite dementia was relentlessly pushed.

In her situation now, I'd happily - well, not happily - I'd be distraught - allow a cocktail of happy meds to give her a more peaceful end.

I would have done the same for my Mum when she spent the last three days of her life comatose due to ovarian cancer but was still instinctively responsive to pain.

But this is the thing. Assisted Dying can only be carried out when someone has capacity, so it will not help many with the dignified and pain free death they desire. Advance directives would not apply.

This safeguard is understandable to a degree.

And I also am concerned about mission creep given the current zeitgeist and attitudes to those who are deemed a drain in society.

In principal, I want the suffering to have their wishes respected. In practise, given experience I have had with the authorities in various situations, including healthcare, I am wary of legislation that can be amended with potential ulterior motives.

It is horrific to see someone slowly dying of anything, worrying about their pain, how aware they might be. I've done four such death beds, but these scenarios won't be addressed.

So overall, I'm hugely conflicted.

I don’t think they want to handle it, with the top of the tree being naysayers. It feels a bit pontious pilot in a way. If it gets pushed through they can wash thier hands and shunt it over to nhs. Avoids the Swinney killed my granny headlines.

The bigger picture is that people are dying in pain and misery in a so-called civilised society.

There are dangers to this sort of legislation - but there are dangers to having none, in terms of human suffering.

Hopefully the example of MAID in Canada will help the UK to not go down the route of adding on new more liberal conditions that are the cause fo concern. The line not to be crossed is allowing assisted dying on the basis of a mental health condition that clouds judgement.

The reality is that these decisions are being taken every day in an under the counter fashion. My own OH died because I refused for his pneumonia to be treated (I had PofA) because his condition meant that his life was indescribable misery with no prospect of improvement. No-one batted an eyelid - they simply got the end-of-life pack and proceeded to care for him with dedication till the end when he died very peacefully.

I think it is paranoid to suggest that the government is involved in a desire to see this bill pass to save money on elderly care - there is a free vote on this and the government has no official line. Labour MPs are free to decide for themselves.

It is true that we need to invest more in good terminal care facilities and better support for the hospice movement. It would be wrong if people opted for assisted dying because of the absence of those facilities.

It's for those with 6 months to live, therefore it doesn't apply in her case.

People keep talking about all the checks and balances, but to do that properly will take time and money. If it's done thoroughly, won't most cases be delayed to such an extent that a person who only has six months to live anyway (which I believe are the only circumstances this would apply in?) runs out of time anyway?

I think people should have the right to choose to end their life if they have reached a point where they are in constant pain and have no practical hope of getting better.

Not everyone has the funds to use organisations such as Dignitas. I also think that the rules need to be extended to people who might not necessarily have a terminal illness but no longer have any quality of life and want out.

However it needs some good safeguarding in place and also come with better palliative care and an effort to fix the NHS and social care.

Because I am also concerned that with the current government targeting disabled people and pensioners and making it impossible for them to have enough money to live on with dignity and we saw how expendable people in care homes were during the covid crisis, the next step might be pressure to stop them being a so called 'burden' through pressure to use state sanctioned suicide.

As always the devil is in the details.

Yes.

People keep talking about safeguarding the vulnerable while forgetting they someone terminally ill and in pain is the very definition of vulnerable.

It’s a really emotive subject and one where I can absolutely see both sides.

I do think that people who for example terminally ill should be able to choose to end their lives if they want to rather than suffer. I have had family members with Alzheimers and I know my own mum has always said she would rather be able to leave this world of her own choice rather than face a 10 year decline into Alzheimers becoming a person she doesn’t even know, not recognising her own children, and I do get that. It has been brutal for us as a family seeing people lost that way, it would be good if people could express their wishes while of sound mind.

BUT

Even despite all that, I don’t want to see this legalised. I don’t trust the government or the NHS to keep things safe here, I worry it would be a way for family to coerce people into ending their lives rather than going into care homes (how many threads do we see about how we can hide parents house etc to avoid losing inheritance to care fees), coercion is incredibly difficult to detect and I don’t trust any organisation to do that properly.

But the solution to this is proper palliative care. Good basic care, where people are valued and considered. Nobody should be dying in pain. We have the resources to stop that from happening, but lack of investment in palliative care and hospices prevents it from being accessible to many. That is what is wrong here. And it is absolutely fixable, just at a cost.

If someone's depression is so severe that they want to commit suicide, they'll attempt it with or without legislation!

I’m currently watching my dad slowly die. He is distraught at the indignity of it and he just wants it over. It is devastating seeing him like this. You are being so, so unreasonable.

Your ‘bigger picture’ scaremongering is total nonsense. Anyone that is against this bill clearly hasn’t had to sit and watch a loved suffering at end of life. We don’t treat animals like this. We help them on the way when it’s time. We should be able to do the same.

Proper palliative care and less fannying around with controlling pain relief in case it kills someone who is actively dying could be the answer, in my opinion, on a case by case basis, decided by treating medics and family at the time.

Sorry, yes, aware this legislation is very narrow and would not have applied to my mum, but would for others (I have a couple of friends with partners sadly dying of cancer for example).

It's Keir

Suffering isn’t just about physical pain. My dad isn’t in physical pain. He is suffering from other symptoms besides pain, but the main element of his suffering is the psychological impact of lying there waiting to die.

Have you read up on this? Or are you just imagining things?

This has been on the table for decades to be fair. Previously voted down but euthanasia / assisted dying has been introduced in a number of western countries since then. public opinion has shifted too, I suspect, hope, it’ll get through this time otherwise just kicking the can down the road and it’ll be back in a few years.

The bigger picture isn't "this will allow doctors to kill people" though. Assisted dying is for when people who are unwell want to die on their own terms, not suffer for months/years unable to do things for themselves.

There will be an extreme level of regulation and many, many hoops to jump through before anyone can actually utilise it. It's a good thing.

I’m pro legalised dying, and I mean for anyone who wants to. People need to understand that for lots of people there are much worse things than death.

I’d make the age limit 25 unless there are other issues like a terminal illness but I think everyone has the right to decide what to do with their life. Suicide is violent, and usually has implications for the people that have to find the body/clean up the mess/drive the train someone jumped in front of. If we can eradicate that too then we should.

I think most people contemplating assisted dying are suffering from depression. I read an interesting article about how actually, the thoughts and concerns of all suicidal people are much the same, regardless of their other health issues.

Watching documentaries about Canada ect. is all well and good and great for teaching what not to do.

How about also researching countries which are handling it well?

Australia don't seem to have the same problems.

Well said.

I can't think of a way to say this without sounding callous so I'm just going to say it.

How is that different to them just committing suicide anyway? There's no actual way to stop them doing it if they want to, regardless of the law.

And if assisted dying is an option, it will be for people doctors have determined are of sound mind and capable of making that judgement, for their own circumstances and a multitude of factors. No doctor is going to say "oh you're suffering with depression and want to commit suicide, here have these meds and off you pop". Not to mention that everywhere it's actually allowed you need multiple doctors signing off on it.

I think you're panicking without thinking it through or looking at what it means.

I'm so sorry about your dad.
I am however against this bill at this time. And i have watched my nan, aunt and partner died from various cancers, and my dad from dementia among other things.

It really bothers me that it’s the SNP leading this.

They have form for being dazzled by shiny headline grabbing policies and not doing the necessary work to acknowledge risks and put proper safeguarding in place. They’re absolutely desperate to be seen to be more progressive as Westminster.

As a result we have so-called ‘inclusive’ education which in reality means children at my kids school are routinely beaten and terrorised by a child with extremely complex additional needs but no schools equipped to meet them because the SNP have closed them all. His parents are in despair and so are the rest of us. The SNP…? Doing fuck all to acknowledge the mess they’ve made.

If they’d had their way we would have had a serial rapist locked up with women. This was an actual real thing. And under their watch this serial rapist was able to enroll in beauty course where he could watch young girls learn how to do spray tans nearly nude. And the SNP did fuck all to acknowledge the mess they’d made.

So, do I think assisted dying is very very important? Yes. Do I trust the SNP motivations? No. Do I think the SNP have the calibre of politicians required to do this properly? Absolutely not.