To think Starmer has shot himself in the foot.

[TheQuickRobin]

This isn’t about my own opinion but political strategy.

So he does this Island of strangers thing wanting to appeal to Labour heartlands who have gone to Reform. But.

I just think Reform voters won’t believe him?

Tories hate him becaus he’s Labour.

Middle class Labour lefties will be put off by the message.

Who does he think he’s winning over?

Anyone on here had their opinion of him changed?

IABU - I thought he was a prat now I think he’s on my team

IANBU - EITHER I thought he was a prat, still think he’s a prat OR I liked him now think he’s a prat.

Very unscientific poll here!

Well I do object to ID actually so how does this play out as it can't just be what the extreme right wants!

I don't work for the government so I don't have a say in that.

Right, and the finger wagging about correct language is exactly the kind of lecturing that has stymied debate and allowed ill feeling to fester.

I don’t need or want some kind of police state. Just some border control like Aus does.

You only have to do the most miniscule bit of research - aka googling - to understand why Albanian people came to the UK. But I imagine that is beyond you.

I have no respect for people who describe fellow human beings as "illegals". None at all. And being as you neither know nor care the first thing about how the world works and the virtually insurmountable barriers presented to desperate people, I'll leave you to wallow in your ignorance.

477000 and 1230131 respectively in 2023. Why?

Oh sure. That's exactly why we are where we are now. People like me pointing out that nobody is "illegal".

He is, and always has been an unprincipled self centred tosser. Why people voted for him fuck knows.

He will be gone well before the next election - probably sooner than later now

I’d be fine with ID cards quite a few other countries require people to always have their ID.

Would benefit those who don’t have/need a drivers license or passport as a form of ID as well.

I really don’t get why people get angry about proving you have the right to live and work in the place you are living and working.

But he really didn't get substantially more votes than Corbyn did 5 years earlier -the votes were actually very similar.

He won a landslide victory not because he was popular and won lots of new votes. He won because the Tory vote collapsed.

So he's really not popular at all - barely any improvement on Corbyn.

Once Tories get a decent leader and start to look half way competent, Labour will be out of office for another decade or so. If Tories don't turn it around, then we will have Reform in power at the next GE.

I agree. Photo driving licences have become a kind of default ID card. We need something similar for non drivers and then we're nearly there and can start expanding the use to link through to other official government websites like voting registers, access to NHS, immigration status, right to work status, etc. As you say, other countries have ID cards and some have had them for a long time, with no serious detrimental effects.

The thing is though is that if everyone who is persecuted in a country flees it, that country will never change. If everyone who was gay had fled say England over the centuries when they faced persecution we wouldn’t have the more tolerant society now.

Much of life is an accident of birth, we should be focusing our funds and resources on getting other countries to change to stop the persecution so people wouldn’t need to flee.

I am 100% in favour of ID cards. These should link through so show age, address, nationality, sex (as observed at birth), whether you qualify for free treatment on the nhs.

In practice a government issued ID check already exists. It is that the UK does not ask you use it to access public services (yet).

Is that the advice you'd give to your kids then? Stay and be persecuted to make life better for other people maybe, at some point, possibly? Is that what you'd do? Were gay people murdered by the UK government because they were gay?

This reminds me of the hoo haa on here with ID for voting. No doubt the Labour crowd will applaud similar for anything else.

They deserve to go for a grade hypocrisy.

Tg others see it.

You keep on about hypocrisy @EasternStandard but with no indication as to what you’re referring to. What exactly do you find so hypocritical?

I don't think Starmer gives a shit, tbh, he's too busy trying to look like a Tory. If he gave a shit, he wouldn't be targeting disabled people, many of whom are vulnerable.

As far as voters go, friends and colleagues that I've discussed it with will be switching their vote to LD or Green, depending on which of the two they think is most likely to succeed.

It's not an issue for me, as I live in an LD/Con marginal, so I vote tactically for the LD anyway.

'illegally' If I break into someone's house i've done something illegal.

A country without proper borders is nothing.

The nation state and its borders are a relatively recent, and very artificial, development compared to the aeons of history defined by the human urge to migrate.

God give me strength not to argue with people who think that how we live now - or how they imagine we lived 30 years ago through a haze of false nostalgia - is "how it's always been" and some kind of natural law.

I'm not objecting to illegal as a verb. I'm objecting to it as a noun.

I’ve lived and worked in 4 other countries. In 2 of them I was a Regional Head of Recruitment for a global consultancy. I dealt with government immigration centres. I practised their laws. I’ve been an immigrant in 4 countries and understand and respect how they operated.

I think out the 2 of us, I’m probably the one with the most knowledge and experience of being an immigrant and working with hiring people from overseas. Hardly lacking in “how the world works” eh?