To stop my son from presenting as Jewish at school

[Wonderberry]

I really wish this wasn't the case.

My son wants to wear his kippah (skullcap) at school. This is entirely his choice, and something that he has chosen to start wearing recently. He just wants to express his religious and cultural background.

Unfortunately, I don't feel like he would be safe to do so. I hate that this is where we are at currently in the UK, but I know it is the reality. He goes to a community school in London, and doesn't understand why he cannot wear his kippah at school. On cultural days, he also cannot share his culture either.

Do you mean over 2000 years ago?

What about all the posts that have mentioned all the physical harm they or their loved ones have experienced? Why do you keep ignoring them?

A child saying "some of my family is from Israel and in Israel they speak Hebrew and eat lots of humous and shawarma" which is, realistically, the level of information a 6 year old would be providing his friends with is not inappropriate or pushing some sort of agenda 😂

The point is that most Jews, if they do not wear a kippa or magen david necklace or other visibly Jewish clothing, are not visibly obviously Jewish. I mean there is a certainly a Jewish look but its not as obvious as skin colour might be. If Ops son wears a kippa he is immediately obviously Jewish.

Where are the examples of physical harm that a 7 year old could come to?

They might give that level of info, or they might have picked up other views from family etc..its not a risk I would take as a teacher.

I am not the same poster but my great-grandmother was born in what is now Israel sometime in the late 1800s. She was Jewish. Ended up being made to leave because she was Jewish so went to Iraq where she was made to leave because she was Jewish so went to India 🙃

You're not engaging, you're taunting and that's unforgivable. Interesting how you presumed I was referring to you though.

Yes, they were exiled at some point. Many Jews were exiled after the destruction of the Temple by the Romans. Then my ancestors spent 2000 years in Europe being told they were not wanted in various ways. Culminating in being murdered en masse in the Shoah. Fortunately my immediate grandparents left mainland Europe before 1939, some to then Palestine, some to the UK.

So as long as 7 year olds are supervised, they are free from attacks/not in danger 🙄 Southport suggests differently. Unbelievable ignorance and faux naivety.

Huh? You know that 7 year olds fight and such right? So it's not so crazy to think that someone might hurt a child.

My daughter wasn't physically threatened until a bit later - think the first time she was surrounded by people refusing to let her leave she was 9? Which I guess doesn't qualify as 'physical harm' but the incident was physical.

Yes of course some Jewish people are ethnically descended from that region. But the majority of Jewish people haven't had ethnic links to Israel for thousands of years.

Yes but I think that might be similar to the post I wrote here:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/amibeingunreasonable/5333827-to-stop-my-son-from-presenting-as-jewish-at-school?reply=144270685&utmcampaign=reply&utmmedium=share

Where I spoke about how my 400 year old ethnic links to West Africa are tenuous (actually despite being prevalent in my DNA). I'm Jamaican. Ethnically (my DNA shows I'm part of an African diaspora in Jamaica and now Britain) and culturally, I'm Jamaican.

Thats just not true. What are you basing this on?

There may have been some limited conversion into Judaism but the Khazar myth has long been disproven.

My husband, for example is a desendant of the Levite tribe. He could probably take some type of DNA test to prove it if he wanted.

On my side of the family we have family trees going back to King David. My ancestors on both sides were pretty into geneology. :)

scopeblog.stanford.edu/2013/12/20/new-genetic-study-more-evidence-for-modern-ashkenazi-jews-ancient-hebrew-patrimony/

Well for me I was born in Israel but ethnically am 100% Russian Jewish (which is indeed an ethnicity as my ancestors definitely weren't mixing with ethnic Russians!). My great-grandparents all immigrated to the states after the pogroms in the 1880s when the rest of their family was murdered. Then my parents lived in Israel for a few years, had me, moved back to the states and then I immigrated to Scotland.

So ethnically I am 100% Russian Jewish, my kids are 50% but we all have Israeli passports. My kids have as much right to talk about Israel as either America or Scotland if asked to give a presentation on their family.

Shorter version is - what part of your background and your history is important to you is deeply personal and up for so many interpretations. A lot of it depends on how you're raised or - sometimes - how you look. My kids are being raised in a Jewish-Scottish-American household so they are used to having challah on Fridays and haggis on burns night.

You're right of course, but the ignorant who aren't aware of such things are often equally ignorant - or maybe they just don't want to know - about the nuances around the whole situation in the middle east

It sometimes seems they just want to pick a victim and bang on regardless with the uninformed virtue signalling, and if this enables some antisemitism to be thrown into the mix, so much the better

Because as you said:

"Pretty much all Jews (unless descended from converts on both sides) are descended from people who were mostly (a tiny presence remained) forcibly removed and exiled from the land of Israel."

So the number of Jewish people of what is now Israeli ethnicity is small.

So whereas I come back something like 87% West African. Most Jewish people don't come back as 87% ME.

The examples are in all the posts you seem to have ignored. Maybe read through them?

Honestly very glad you're not my children's teacher if you wouldn't let them talk about their heritage. In my children's (Jewish) school they have talked about Iran and Turkey because one of the children has parents from those two countries. At no point did anyone feel the need to point out any of the historic or current issues those two countries have with Jewish people or any mention of the ottoman empire etc. It just wasn't relevant. The children learned about the traditional foods they eat there and what their friend calls his grandparents. They also have a new German girl in the class who joined halfway through the year and she has spoken about her heritage and at no point did anyone feel the need to mention either world war as that wouldn't be even remotely age-appropriate. She mostly spoke about the mountains they used to live by and how they could go skiing there in the winter.

It can be done if you as a teacher are tolerant, non-judgemental and care about embracing everyone's differences rather than pretending they don't exist.

I couldn't agree more, *CleverButScatty" - in fact I asked upthread if Judaism was included in the school's multicultural teaching but received no reply

Unfortunately however there are some schools (I've no way of knowing if this is one of them) where the very idea would be almost guaranteed to create parent protests, and some seem to feel they must be appeased at all costs and never mind the damage to anyone else

I'd love to see your evidence that the majority of Jewish people haven't had ethnic links to Israel in thousands of years. It sounds fascinating. I didn't realise the majority of Jewish people had disclosed their family trees like that!

Or are you just doing that thing where you are trying to imply that Jewish people don't actually belong in Israel?

I'd also be interested to know how many decades you have to go back before your ethnicity changes? You seem to have quite strong opinions on that matter in your other posts.

I 'think' what she means is that there is recent evidence on what it actually means when someone comes back as Ashkenazi Jewish (I came back at 99% Ashkenazi Jewish when I did one of those blood test things. Waste of money for me - was hoping for something more interesting!). That the origins of that group of people when you go back further actually can be traced back to the area around current Israel.

You can see how there’s been a shift into more open racism, antisemitism and Islamaphobia.
Everyone is actually on the same side. We all want people to stop dying, for people to stop hating and for people to stop being divided.
When I hear what some messages are being voiced about Muslims, Jews, Black people, everyone is living in fear.
I’m not Jewish but hearing Ye’s new song and how popular it is, is terrifying. It seems like there are no boundaries for hatred anymore.
Looks open season. What’s next?

My kids' primary school focusses on a different religion each year and P3 is Judaism. My kids go to the P3 classes to do a presentation on chanukah each year.

4 . One of the plantation owners was a great grandfather of mine

Yes, and that's up to 2000 years previously. Like my roots in Western Africa are like 4 or 500 years old now.

"Or are you just doing that thing where you are trying to imply that Jewish people don't actually belong in Israel?"

And as far as I ws concerned, this was about a boy in the UK wanting to speak about his Israeli heritage. I'm simply ascertaining if it would be like me speaking about being Jamaican, or West African.

An entirely healthy way to handle things, PurpleThistle7, and frankly no more than I'd expect

As said though, it's just such a shame that this would be completely unacceptable to some parents