To stop my son from presenting as Jewish at school

[Wonderberry]

I really wish this wasn't the case.

My son wants to wear his kippah (skullcap) at school. This is entirely his choice, and something that he has chosen to start wearing recently. He just wants to express his religious and cultural background.

Unfortunately, I don't feel like he would be safe to do so. I hate that this is where we are at currently in the UK, but I know it is the reality. He goes to a community school in London, and doesn't understand why he cannot wear his kippah at school. On cultural days, he also cannot share his culture either.

More than half of us live in London with a sizeable population in Manchester. There are some famous seminaries in Gateshead so a small ultraorthodox community there. Small community in Glasgow. There is a surge in reform/liberal conversions since the pandemic and due to possibility of zoom classes, we are probably attracting from a wider geographic area. When I converted you had to attend weekly classes at a synagogue.

Basically if you don't live in London, Manchester or certain parts of the home counties like Radlett, Borehamwood, Bushey, you are unlikely to encounter many Jewish people. And in London most of us live in nw london. This is OP's issue, I think it probably is easier in nw london community schools in the jeeish areas as many non orthodox Jews do send their children to local schools ( there is a liberal rabbi Pete tobias who once penned an article where he outlined his opposition to faith schools). I am happy to be corrected if other parents had different experiences.

I'm in Edinburgh and the majority of children in my kids' Hebrew school are the only Jewish children in their schools - and mostly we are immigrants to Scotland, not a lot of people with Scottish parents, etc. Glasgow is different and there are more Jewish people there. Once you keep going north in Scotland there are just a handful of Jewish families.

45% for all orthodox. 13% Haredi.

No, because his family could be immigrants to Israel with no ethnic ties there at all. Just like my Uncle who settled in Germany. It doesn't mean I have ethnic or cultural ties to Germany. It doesn't make me German.

And the fact that my ancestors were taken from Nigeria doesn't make me, today, very much Nigerian. And as I have said, I'm 87% West African by DNA.

Whatever the percentage of orthodoxy is, I was brought up 'conservative' (outside of the UK) but our traditions and culture were quite similar to orthodox. My parents generation was the first one where people started marrying out but stayed in the community. So there are also many non-orthodox Jewish communities where 'marrying out' used to be unusual and where everything @EllaDisenchanted said applies too.

Ok but she said he considers his heritage to be Israeli so you should probably just accept that rather than try to prove some weird point and tell someone else how they feel.

If your family had been able to keep up their West African culture and traditions in Jamaica as slaves (which I of course recognise was probably near impossible and not the most important thing for them to try to do at the time when they were fighting just to survive) and you as a result felt West African despite your family not stepping foot anywhere near the African continent for 400 years, I wouldn't be telling you you were wrong. Because it's fuck all of my business how you feel.

Those in the United Kingdom who consider themselves Jews identify as follows:

• 34% Secular
• 18% Ultra Orthodox
• 14% Modern Orthodox
• 14% Reform
• 10% Traditional, but not very religious
• 6% Liberal
• 2% Conservative
• 2% Sephardi

Only modern orthodox and ultra orthodox would likely be visibly jewish- wear kippot, women wear wigs once married (many modern orthodox women I know dont cover their heads after marriage) , more conservative dress like suits for men esp on Friday and long skirts for women. They would keep kosher and would need to go home earlier from work in the winter to prepare for shabbat. Conservative (masorti) Jews may observe this to a certain extent as well but they are very small and mainly in London.

I think traditional Jews mean that you belong to an orthodox synagogue and you possibly keep a kosher kitchen but you will switch on lights on shabbat and drive to synagogue- judaism is more of a cultural thing than a religious thing. Orthodox Jewish men I know are so committed to learning that they will learn torah portions on the tube.

Liberal/reform quite similar to secular in terms of dress and to a certain extent kashrut and shabbat.. but more focus on ethics than religious observance.

I think when they say jewish people have assimilated, it means that with the exception of the ultra orthodox, modern orthodox and even orthodox jewish people have no qualms about having non jewish friends. They send their children to university and I know plenty of orthodox jewish kids who flatshare with non jewish friends even with the kosher consideration..

I think that would depend on what I'm about to say about my West African heritage to a class of mainly white kids of European descent, which was where I started this point.

When a Jamaican person leads with something akin to "I'm African", it's about to get political.

I identify as predominantly culturally Jewish in that I celebrate the holidays via traditions and food, not so much synagogue and such. If you have never been in my house and I’ve never told you, you’d have no idea I was Jewish. I don’t keep kosher or keep Shabbat or do anything identifiably different to anyone else. But at home we spend some days eating apples and honey and we build a sukkah and my children attend a liberal Hebrew school and we invite friends round to eat too many latkes. But you’d have to both be in my home and recognise things in my house as being traditionally Jewish to know anything.

also my husband isn’t Jewish so we celebrate his holidays with him so December is a very chaotic time!

I'm not sure what else to say with regards to my child having Israeli heritage. While our family moved to Israel post 1948, the reason for this was due to the country they had been living in not being safe. They were refugees, and no other country would accept them. They were also stateless, as they had their original nationality removed. They were penniless too, as all their assets were seized. Despite having lived in this country for multiple generations, since at least the middle ages. During this time, there were unfortunately many pogroms. Therefore it's complicated with regards to heritage.

I have met people from this other country (deliberately not naming it here in order to not disrail) who say that I am not of that nationality despite the many generations that have lived there, due to being Jewish, and that they do not like Jews. Obviously this is not represent all of those from this country, but it's understandable why Israeli heritage is so important in this context, having been disowned by the other country. I'm sure this is a familiar story to many Jews.

Reform was a response in part to many German Jews converting to Christianity to be accepted by German society. It's why the format of service of some Reform synagogues (central london ones) can seem similar to cathedrals.

My synagogue was very much inspired by early German Reform Judaism. We have an organist and a full choir (most of whom are not Jewish). Reform Judaism in its early stages was mainly about a reformation of the service style- more emphasis on the use of the vernacular and also mixed seating than about intermarriage..in the past I think marriage was much more 'closed', people across social classes tended to marry their own.. jewish people would also have been seen as very different unlike today where race/religion aren't seen as such large barriers.

The acceptance of intermarriage came about mainly because they wanted the children of the union to be raised Jewish. We also embraced LGBT rights. I think this was because of the emphasis on keeping Judaism relevant to our world today but probably the founders of reform judaism wouldn't have seen this coming as the issues of the day were very different.

Or age 7, it would just be "My family were originally from a country called Nigeria. Nigeria is in a continent called Africa. Then my family were sent to Jamaica to be slaves. Jamaica is an island and when I visit Jamaica I like to go to my grandma's house because she makes really nice food." Etc.

My kids go to a Jewish school and they don't learn about any controversial topics with regards to Israel unless there is a war going on, at which point they only hear about it through their daily dose of Newsround, just like they heard about the war in Ukraine from there as well. Because it's possible to talk about things at age-appropriate levels.

7 year olds would be told by their Israeli peer that when he visits their family in Israel they go to the beach and eat shwarma and falafel and have really big and loud gatherings where everyone drinks lots of black, sweetened tea in tiny cups and then we go to the market where there are loads of different spices in all sorts of colours and they all smell loads. There would be no agenda. I know it's hard for some people to believe, but not everything a Jewish or Israeli person says or does has an agenda. We are just normal people. We don't go around indoctrinating our children, we just do our best to bring them up and help them navigate an increasingly tricky and bigoted world.

Right, but brown/black skinned Jews don't look massively different than brown/black skinned non Jews. Not sure I could tell the difference between Jewish and non Jewish Iranians. (possibly an Iranian could)

Thank you. A child/my child identifying with his heritage is not political. It's sad that there has been so much hate propaganda perpetuated by a certain part of our society that it's not possible for a child to express so without being on the receiving end of hate.

Some people have asked what I am afraid might happen. Other Jews have already answered this with their own personal experiences. I unfortunately would worry he would be name called and physically attacked by other children. There have already been instances of children going around asking others to pledge 'allegiance to Palestine' and attacking them physically if they do not at this school. The school is aware, as I have emailed them.

I did also email to complain in writing regarding my child not being able to participate in cultural day. I got a vague waffle about being against 'all types of discrimination' and that they would 'support' my son. He doesn't remember any support being offered when I asked him.

My husband and children are brown skinned and are mistaken for either Pakistanis or Italian!! Haha! No idea why because they’re not even similar! Nobody ever guesses they’re Jewish because in most people’s heads we are white Europeans. Such ignorant BS

My children have been mistaken for North African, or people immediately know they are Jewish. They definitely do not look English, or Northern European.

David Baddiel described Jews as Schrödinger's white, or words to this effect. Both 'white' enough to be considered privileged and not to have racism taken seriously, but considered not white by racists. He is a lot more eloquent than me, but the point stands.

I have seen here that people try to gatekeep my child's identity, and question his right to identify with his heritage. It's very sad. Even more so is the blatant Anti-Semitism. I can't imagine people being so comfortable in expressing any other kind of racism. Sadly Anti-Semitism has become the acceptable form of racism.

Always has…..

Sadly you are right, but it's become even more so. The left, who claim to be 'anti-racist' are happy to be openly Anti-Semitic. There have been so many examples on this thread.

To add that I do really appreciate the posts from allies against Anti-Semitism. You are needed now more than ever.

Reading this thread has confirmed that I am right to not allow him to wear his kippah at school. I'm not sure how I will explain it to him given his age. He will continue to wear it outside of school as he wishes.

Whose, not who's. Teacher you say?

Oh I love a Mumsnet pedant.
This is an informal social platform on which I usually type one handed whilst cooking dinner.
When I was a teacher I did give my work a little more attention you will be pleased to know 😘

😆 🤣 what was that you were saying about fiction? Must be all that sun from the beach. Citygirl.

Did you mean to respond that post? There is absolutely no cohesion between what I wrote and your response.

Who is a city girl? Me? I am from Liverpool which is a city, yes. I live in Manchester which is also a city. Do you live in a city? Do you not like people from cities?

I need a little help with a what this post's extraordinarily tedious link is ...

I am trying...
I said that when I used to be a teacher, I paid more attention to typing work documents than I do typing Mumsnet posts whilst sorting tea, homework etc...

Cue comments about fiction and cities. I am still lost.

Your posts are quite erratic this morning. No more caffeine til after lunch perhaps?

Please don't go on the Eurovision boycott thread. I have reported some posts which fortunately have been deleted.
I hope no-one on here saw them, they were vile.

Sorry to hear that. Sad and also unfortunately predictable.

It's a pity that a survivor of a terrorist attack singing attracts such ire from people. Anything Jews do seems to attract hatred, it's as if people don't want us to exist.

It's so sad that my son's presence at school is only acceptable to certain people as long as they don't know he is Jewish.