To have not known kids have to attain grade 4 in maths?

[Pepperpotladles]

I did not know this!
I have obviously been living under a rock.
So today someone told me that if kids get grades 1, 2 or 3 in their maths GCSE, it is compulsory that all these kids have to keep on studying GCSE maths until they achieve a grade 4 or above, and they have to keep trying to achieve this up until their 25th birthday.
Is this true?!?
I can't believe my ears.
What about kids who simply can't achieve grade 4 or above in maths, for any number of reasons?

This is not true. I'm a maths resit teacher. It's 19% or even less for a higher paper. Foundation paper which most who struggle at maths take it's more like 63% or higher. It's actually quite hard to get a 4 if you struggle as there isn't much margin for error as lots of students can't tackle the longer worded questions worth 5 marks.

@TheQuirkyPombear Would love to hear what you believe the cut off point is for those kids who take the foundation vs higher paper. Which do you think is best for a borderline child? And how do schools decide? Thanks for any wisdom!

Would you prefer to do a paper where you started off with what should be relatively easy questions which get harder but doable - but you need to get about 70% on to get a 5?

Or would you prefer a paper that starts off with questions that are quite difficult but not too difficult but get a lot harder, especially the ones near the end, but you only need to get about 35% to get a 5 and you could get a 6?

I guess it's dependent on the pupil doing the exams.

I've had to take these decisions quite a few times for the borderline kids.

Basically, we look at their November mocks. If they're on higher and getting a 5 they stay on higher. If they're on foundation and getting a 5 then they'd go up to higher to have the chance of improving on that.

If they get a 3 on higher then move to foundation.

If they get a 4 on either then it's a decision as to which paper offers their best chance of bumping that 4 to a 5.

Some kids on a 4 on higher ask to move to foundation as they feel they'd do better on an easier paper. Some want to stay on higher and say they want to work harder and give it their best shot (they feel foundation would be a 'demotion').

Kids who get a good 4 on foundation will be given the opportunity to try higher (bearing in mind they haven't been taught any content higher than a 5 so it'll be tough). Some want to, and some don't.

We then have a second set of mocks in March. If they're still on a 4, and it's a low 4 (or if they flunk completely), we'll say they should go back to foundation. If it's a high 4, we ask them what they want to do.

Some very ignorant attitudes on this thread. I’ve got older DC at Russell group universities who breezed through their exams without batting an eyelid.
I’ve got a younger DC who due to health issues as a baby has severe difficulties with maths. If he gets a grade 4 at GCSE I’ll be ecstatic.

@Ghsvdfyou are so incredibly ignorant. Ever heard of Dyscalculia for example? Some people just don’t get maths. It can be incredibly hard for some people. You are clueless.

Please try not to worry. Education is not compulsory post 18, regardless of your grades.

If your DC wants to go to college or complete an apprenticeship, agreeing to complete a maths GCSE or equivalent would probably be a condition of accepting their place.

However, some colleges/apprenticeship providers have students sit functional skills exams instead of a traditional maths GCSE.

The functional skills maths course/exam is very different to a maths GCSE and, with support, many students who found the GCSE impossible are able to pass.

In your shoes, I would help her find a course that interested her and contact different providers to see whether they offer functional skills as an option.

It’s not true.

If you have ADHD or something and you have 10 other subjects to think of at once, that in itself can be a real challenge and a barrier that can hinder people. It can feel very overwhelming and most schools have 30 kids to a class, so the teacher can’t dedicate time to explaining concepts or moving at the pace of individual learners. Everyone learns differently and some people just can’t take in information in the time frame that maths is taught.

I failed maths at school, resat as an adult and it was much easier because it was a much smaller class and the teacher explained things very well etc. You don’t necessarily need serious SEN to fail your GCSE’s. It’s more shocking that people can’t fathom such scenarios. People just learn differently and at different paces. Sometimes things don’t seem to click at school. I still only got a 5 because I went to pieces sitting the exam, but it’s good enough for me for what I needed it for.

My DC really struggled with some other subjects. So he knuckled down, persevered till he got it and managed a good grade.

If you have ADHD or something and you have 10 other subjects to think of at once, that in itself can be a real challenge and a barrier that can hinder people. It can feel very overwhelming and most schools have 30 kids to a class, so the teacher can’t dedicate time to explaining concepts or moving at the pace of individual learners. Everyone learns differently and some people just can’t take in information in the time frame that maths is taught.
Even if you dont have adhd or dyscalculia, this is incredibly hard for some children. The content of the gcse maths is huge. Even at foundation level they have to learn the content to sit 3 exam papers. Why? It's just too much, and as said above, learn the content for sometimes 10 other subjects, very least most kids do 8 gcses, each 2 or 3 papers worth of content. My DS1 struggled hugely with maths. He constantly got 3's, often one mark off, as he did in the exam. We were able to throw money at it and he got a 5 in the November resit after tutoring, by basically drilling him in exam papers. That's not him suddenly knowing the basics after not knowing the basics. That's pure exam technique as to how to sit 3 exam papers. Imo maths and English should be purely competency based, not on a Bell curve. Functional skills L2 is a good qualification for those who find these difficult.

" Imo maths and English should be purely competency based, not on a Bell curve. Functional skills L2 is a good qualification for those who find these difficult."

This

Can you imagine people doing a driving test, but only a certain percentage would fail, even if they had reached the agreed competency of driving..

The other thing that some people forget is that Maths exams require good English comprehension. Students don't just have to be able to do the maths. They have to be able to work out what maths is being asked for. The insistence on using complicated names doesn't help. I was helping a boy who was on course to fail, who had very poor literacy. Half his problem was that he couldn't say the name of the person in the question. I had to specifically teach him that no matter what the name was, he could change it to 'Tom' and 'Jane'. Then he could at least read the question. But then he had to understand the question and pull out the facts. I do think that acts as almost double testing.

The content of the gcse maths is huge. Even at foundation level they have to learn the content to sit 3 exam papers. Why? It's just too much, and as said above, learn the content for sometimes 10 other subjects, very least most kids do 8 gcses, each 2 or 3 papers worth of content

It's true that the content of maths GCSE is huge compared to other subjects. There have been long campaigns to get it split into two GCSEs to account for this but all that has been achieved is that maths counts for 2 GCSEs in government league table measures.

I think this is a big issue for functional skills Maths too. The questions are so wordy.

Grade 4 at maths means "basically numerate, can be trusted to carry out tasks that require a basic understanding of how numbers work" - it is a pretty low standard. Employers generally won't employ anyone who doesn't have a grade 4 in maths so of course the rule has tp be to keep educating people until they achieve this baseline, otherwise you are accepting that they will never be employed.

If a child can't manage a grade 4 on the 2nd/3rd attempt there is an alternative qualification "functional skills maths" which at level 2 is equivalent to a grade 4 at GCSE, and has more "real world" numeracy questions.

It's not though it s not just ,basic mental.arithmetic it cover ,s a much wider syllabus most of which most people will.never use once they leave education .

I see your maths and raise your combined science.

Additionally, it is all very well saying there is functional skills, but many colleges don't actually offer L2 FS as an option. It requires different lessons to the GCSE so costs them more to put on.

I think the education system should really be asking itself why 1/3 of children are leaving KS4 without that basic, essential gateway qualification by design of the system. Could it be there's something wrong with the qualification system , not the children?

Indeed my sons college doesn't even though I was told they did ,we are both just desperate for him to get through so he can finally move on to.an apprenticeship.

Oh and while we are here discussing this.
There is government funding post 18 if you haven't got your maths or English.

Only it turns out there is a gap, if you leave college after 2 years you have to wait a year for the adult education funding to kick in as you have to be 19 on the 1st Sept of the academic year. Wonderful.