To have not known kids have to attain grade 4 in maths?

[Pepperpotladles]

I did not know this!
I have obviously been living under a rock.
So today someone told me that if kids get grades 1, 2 or 3 in their maths GCSE, it is compulsory that all these kids have to keep on studying GCSE maths until they achieve a grade 4 or above, and they have to keep trying to achieve this up until their 25th birthday.
Is this true?!?
I can't believe my ears.
What about kids who simply can't achieve grade 4 or above in maths, for any number of reasons?

Is grading with numbers more confusing than letters?
To me its no difference.

Pretty sure you don't need to do simultaneous equations to get gd4 maths?

But you probably do need to be able to confidently do stuff like calculate percentages (pretty important if you want to understand how your mortgage interest works), understand stuff like fractions and ratios (often used in measurement etc in stuff like construction), and be confident enough with numbers to be able work out what's left from your pay packet after you've paid your bills?
Maths is important in life.

What I do disagree with though is the fact that exam boards determine the percentage of kids getting a 4 and generally only barely half of kids will get a GCSE maths pass or higher each year even if they are better at maths than the previous year. So even though kids maths skills probably get better and better each year as standards are driven up, they literally don't allow more than about 58% or 59% of them overall to get a decent pass at maths.
It doesn't reflect maths ability, it reflects whether you were in the top 60% of the year at maths, nationally.

@Emanresuunknown Simultaneous equations are on the foundation syllabus.

There are lots of things you could get away with not knowing, but you can't not know all of them as it leaves zero room for error on any of the other questions.

I have been working with my DC for months on foundation paper maths so I am very familiar with it. He has no SEN and is of middling intelligence. He should get a 4 and has a good chance of a 5. This is consistent with his CAT scores. He works very hard and some of the comments on here are upsetting to read. The foundation paper is not just about simple numeracy. It includes simultaneous equations, laws of indices, trigonometry, Pythagoras, bearings, probability, Venn diagrams, reverse percentages, compound interest, calculating equations of graphs, highest common factors ….. The grade boundaries seem to be increasing year on year and I think you now need around 60% for a 4 and 70% for a 5. You probably could get away without learning simultaneous equations if you do well on the rest of the paper, but the questions definitely exist.

I also agree that the pass mark should be set at a specific standard and not related to how other children do. My DS has got a 5 on pretty much all past papers he’s done, but he’s not far over (75-80%) so if the grade boundaries go up again….

English Language is a bigger worry for us, but that’s a different thread…..

I also agree that the pass mark should be set at a specific standard and not related to how other children do

But we assess the standard of the paper by looking at how the children do on it. If it was a hard paper, the kids do worse and the grade boundaries are lowered.

It is basically impossible to set a paper that is exactly the same level of difficulty each year. A fixed pass mark would disadvantage those who get a hard paper and advantage those who get an easier one.

My now 22 year old got 4+ in everything except maths, he worked his socks off to achieve those grades. Due to his age, he did 3 years of college, and resat maths every year, his highest grade was a 3. He now has a secure job he loves, and is doing well for himself. My 18 year old got 7+ without even trying at all. My youngest is sitting hers now and revises every spare minute, because she wants to get higher grades than my middle son. Nothing to do with her future goals.

GCSE's are not the be all and end all. Not all children are academic. Not all adults go on to be in the top 10% of earners. If your childs aspirations are to be a mechanic, or a chef, or in the arts, or play computer game professionally, or to be an athelete, or whatever it may be, its our job are parents to guide and support that ambition, maybe discuss how realistic that ambition is and encourage a back up plan, but its their ambition whether its what we would chose for them or not. As long as you tell your child the most important thing is to try their best, the grade doesnt actually matter. "It'll be a cold day in hell" and other comments like that do not build up a child to do their best, it could lead to them feeling like a failure before they have even started.

In answer to the OP, they resit if lower than a 4 in further education, if thats where they decide to go, but not until they are 25.

WHAT!😳. who told you that?. Grade 4 is 50-60%

Some who struggle with GCSE and functional skills find Edexcel’s Awards in Mathematics more accessible. There are 2 different awards - number and measure which can be sat at level 1 and level 2 and algebra which can be sat at level 2 and level 3. Although not seen as equivalent to GCSE, they can help some DC have a sense of success.

"most people won't use GCSE maths" - say that to all the people working in STEM careers and have quantitative jobs. GCSE maths is a steeping stone to A-level and university level maths.

My DS is an economist and uses mathematical concepts all the time.

The economy requires a numerate population regardless of whether any particular individual uses every element of their maths gcse or not.

Compound interest is one of the things we do use in life... understanding loans, mortgages etc.

Maybe a topic for a different thread... what maths should we all understand!

As others said, it used to be a grade C. A relative is a primary school teacher and sat her maths GCSE 4 times before getting a C to get onto her teacher training course. Thankfully she has never taught higher than y2.

No it isn't, it's about 60%

And Maths isn't used for a wide range of careers. It's no indication of a struggle in future life at all.

Here in Australia if you don't pass math you need to repeat the year it's a core subject

My sister was a primary school teacher for 25 years she sat her maths GCSE at least four times before she got a C ,whilst she mainly worked in early years
She ended up helping prepare kids for their SATS !

You don't need extreme learning difficulties to struggle in certain subjects. That's a ridiculous thing to say.

30% of kids fail by design.
If 70% of kids had done better than your son, he would have failed.

Of course, nobody is taking away GCSE maths for those of us (like me) whose entire career is based on STEM. But face it, we aren't "most people".

I can still understand a range of qualifications is needed to make sure everyone has a chance to succeed in their own way.

OK I'll bite.. kids who can't.. kids who don't have the intellectual ability to get a grade 4, however hard they work at it. Kids like my son, who is currently sitting his GCSEs because he is in a mainstream school, and if he achieves a 1 will have absolutely aced it.

And I can (and do) understand all that without ever having achieved a grade 4 equivalent in GCSE maths. Meanwhile, my high achieving niece has no understanding of budgeting, and has had trouble with store card debt.

wow wow wow

you do realise that 30% of 16 year old fail GCSE maths every single summer....

Everyone says about GCSE maths that when in real life do you need trigonometry, geometry and simultaneous equations but no one mentions that to get get marks in GCSE English there is a lot of poetry and creative writing which are a waste of time.

There are are a lot of teenagers who are brilliant at science and maths (often boys) who have no interest in this and may struggle to get the 4 but have good English otherwise and can write a scientific report, instructions or a news article which is understandable for the reader.

I agree. There is a whole creative writing paper for English Lsnguage, which is fairly subjective. We should be testing competency in literacy and numeracy, not these ridiculous writing off kids who can't possibly get 4's because the system is designed so that a certain percentage will always fail.

One college I taught at students who did not have a grade 4 had to resit at every opportunity. Personally I thought this was not a great idea, you are not going to go from a 1 to a 4 in the three months between results and November resits.