To feel these parent are not understanding ( WhatsApp and Sats )

[Bringmecookies25]

I will try not to drip feed.

DC clas have been preparing for the Sats with mocks/ practice and this has included doing it exactly the way it will happen on the day which has lead to other students noticing “ access arrangements “
today a parent queried in the class WhatsApp group about this
for example “ Henry has said that some people are not completing the tests independently and staff are writing/ reading for them and that a few of them do not finish at the same time and can leave the classroom “

it was politely explained by one parent and seemed to be accepted by parent of Henry - this thought triggered another mum who to be fair is often triggered to pipe up and go on a rant about how it’s always the children who get it easier and it will not be a fair judgement for secondary school sets etc
( area means most children will be going up to the same secondary school ) they then started rambling about GCSEs like what happens at GCSE they get an easier ride in them to get in to colleges ?
this then caused a trickle ( not most ) but a few of the other parents to join in agreement.
My DC is one of them who will be receiving the access arrangements and probably more so than the others as they will have extra time / breaks / scribe and reader in maths etc.
from mocks my DC is likely to get
WT nearly WA in spag - last came out at 97
WA in math - last was 102
GD in reading comp - last was 117
will score low in teaching assessment of writing.
one of the complaints was which I did take to it to beinf towards my DC that sole on the children are not even behind and it just means they will be benefit and have less stress than her DC.

I just wanted to shout at them they have no understanding of the situation and that the point of access arrangements is not to give them a better chance than others but to give them an equal chance !

It's pretty obvious that if someone is getting extra time or a scribe it's not because their Mum works at school or because their Dad shagged the headmistress on the side.

Omg why are they even discussing it? How sad. Sounds like a horrible WhatsApp group micro-analysing and nitpicking at everything.

@Slightyamusedandsilly but speed is part of the assessment. The ability to not just know the answer, but to be able to come up with it quickly, is a part of the assessment in many subjects. For example, I’m a doctor and most of what I do requires me not just to know stuff, but to be able to call it to mind quickly. It would be no use me getting my medical qualifications but taking twice as long as everyone else to write the essays in exams, because then I’d be useless at a cardiac arrest.
(obviously if the slowness is due to a physical disability eg unable to actually hold a pen, then that’s different. But in those cases a scribe would be needed, as well as some extra time).

I’m a teacher so I would be highly unlikely to judge. I’ve had plenty of kids get 3s and 4s because they aren’t academic but I can’t think of a single child I’ve taught in nearly 20 years who has had extra time and didn’t genuinely need it to simply level the playing field and make the exam fully accessible. I can only think of one child who had a scribe where I would question their need for it

@JustMarriedBecca the point is the parents aren’t in the class, it’s the kids, who are notorious for reporting things incorrectly. So if a kid says “Amy gets longer because she’s teachers pet”, that’s all the parents hear. The child may not mention that Amy is an asylum seeker who has only been speaking English for 6 months. That’s the kind of detail kids ignore, but parents would understand. As I say, in an ideal world no one would have to justify their adjustments, but we don’t live in an ideal world.

Maybe instead of teaching their children to resent others for getting the support they need, they could try modelling some empathy. Exams come and go, but the ability to treat others with respect and humanity actually matters in life.

I don't mean to pick on you @bigvig , as I agree that it is probably easier for parents who have more time/energy/a better education to fight for their child to get their basic needs met, and that often means it is the more affluent/pushy parents who succeed.

But I want to address the frustratingly common view about how "easy" it is to somehow game the system just by saying or doing a specific thing. Perhaps you have seen parents who actively do this. I don't know anyone who would go to the lengths you have to just to get extraordinarily basic needs met if their child doesn't actually have a disability. Those of us whose children have genuine needs would much rather they were 'normal' and would be delighted if they could do normal things like go to school and sit exams in the same way that the majority of others their age do. I had to fight for months just to get my child's primary school to allow him back in school because they considered his disability was too much of a "risk" for them to manage (code for: we don't want a disabled kid in our school). Then he wasn't allowed to go on excursions unless I came too, because none of the staff wanted to push his wheelchair and they wouldn't assign him the 1:1 his EHCP says he needs. They refuse the free training sessions that the local council will provide (on-site, at the school, at a time of the school's choosing) in how to meet the needs of hearing impaired children. They do nothing to address the constant physical and verbal bullying. Now I have the SENCO flat out refusing to make adjustments that are legally allowable during nationwide exams. What are the magic words I need to say? I've tried polite requests, referring to his medical diagnoses. I've tried quoting the law. The answer is still 'No'. It really isn't easy at all.

OP - I am sorry you have to put up with ignorant idiots like some of the parents in your WhatsApp group. You're right - they have no understanding and it's actually impossible to really understand unless you've lived it, but it's not impossible to use a tiny bit of imagination and empathy to be less of a dick. I'm sorry they don't realise that. I would post the image of the kids looking over a fence that another person posted earlier; it's a really great, instantly understandable way of explaining why adjustements are necessary and how they work.

I hate class WhatsApp’s and I would never usually respond to half of the ignorant fucking moaners in them. However given the situation and the fact you won’t have to deal with these parents for much longer I don’t think I’d be able to help myself putting something like ‘dc has no use of his arm hence why he has a scribe, I hope this clears it up for you.’

Factual, polite but just patronising enough to make them look stupid.

These mums have spent 6 years with us in the school, they are fully aware of the children’s extra needs and one thing about DC they I don’t suppose we suffer with too much is that it is clear to see and not invisible.

That of course is different. You definitely need to have fast thought processes for your job.

I clearly have slow processing. I was useless in seminars at uni, couldn't come up with ideas fast enough, or under pressure. Still can't respond quickly, I need time to consider and to work through my answers. I scraped through exams at school. Whereas at uni, I actively selected coursework based modules and got a 1st. And a merit for my MA.

If I'd been solely assessed by time driven exams I'd have been severely restricted and limited to manual work. Instead of being a highly qualified, higher rate tax paying professional. I was lucky that I had the opportunity to make choices that suited me. Giving kids an extra 10% of time in exams could literally make the difference between pass and fail.

Being prepared to put children at Y6/age 11 on the scrapheap because they can't churn out fast answers is ludicrous.

@C152 also of course, assessment for autism, ADHD, dyslexia etc do of course at times come back negative. I know of someone who was convinced their child was on the spectrum, only to have their expected diagnosis denied. Not autistic. Parents were shocked.

So I think the issue here and I get this is that the access arrangements are not there to enable the disabled child a leg up and shouldn’t help them beyond their capabilities.
for example although DC will have a scribe - the scribe will have to write word for word what he says so if they has use of their limbs their answers would be the same and their score would be the same.

the same for those who have readers - the reading comp exam they are not allowed readers because that woukd effect beyond their capabilities

in maths they can have readers but wouldn’t have help with the actual maths so there capabilities in maths are not effected by the access arransgements.

Yes, and the scribe will ONLY punctuate if he says, 'comma' or 'full-stop'. He won't get marks for spelling (that % of the exam will be missed out). If he doesn't paragraph, he'll still get marked down.

I'd hate to have to work with a scribe. Harder than writing yourself I think.

Yes Dc finds maths with scribing particularly hard 🤣 when it comes to do “ working out “ part on paper. He has to literally dictate ok so out a decimal point there as then write the 2 that side of the decimal point.

Sats do not put children on the scrapheap although some crazy parents seem to think that and will spend hours and ponds on tutors who are quite willing to exploit this.
A timed paper would be useful in gathering information on fast and slow thinkers (eg every answer correct but didn't finish paper) so that future education can be targeted.
I can see that in my family members - all scientists but the quick thinker is the medic while the slow thinker is in research and development. DH is can't walk and talk at the same time brigade so can only work if shut away whereas I am better having to juggle tasks

Sats are nonsense and a total waste of time.

But the bitchy mum(s) in this WhatsApp group are not really bothered about extra time, or care why someone has it, they are concerned that a "top set in secondary school" place might be given to another child. For some reason they are utterly convinced that SATS results and only SATS results are the deciding factor for children's progress in their educational life.

X child got extra time in their SATS which means my child won't get into college. Talk about making a mountain over a molehill (and good luck secondary school teachers of these children).

It's all about metrics. Doesn't benefit children one iota.

“No, Other Parent. Your child is not in any way at a disadvantage because of these access arrangements. In the vast majority of cases, the children who find themselves in this situation have been subject to often very severe disadvantages compared to your able-bodied /NT child from the day they were born - lifelong disadvantages which will extend way beyond their Y6 SATS or their GCSEs. If you really, genuinely would like to discuss in more detail what is and isn’t fair in the hands that our respective children have been dealt by life, I would be very happy to chat to you further, but I’d be surprised if you really want to go down that road.

Incidentally, the access arrangements put in place for exams are meant to attempt to enable all children to access the exams and show what they know, despite any difficulties they may have in seeing/hearing/reading the question, and transferring their answers on to paper. In many cases, the accommodations made by these access arrangements, whilst better than nothing, are extremely blunt tools and often have only a minor effect in countering the lifelong disadvantages many of these children will face. If you have dyslexia, for example, an extra 20 minutes will not magically enable you to be able to spell correctly. You could literally sit there for a week or a month and still not be able to spell a word correctly. If you have ADHD, you may be allowed to get up and move around on the day of the exam, but that has a very small corrective effect on the disadvantage at which you have been placed by years of sitting in a classroom unable to focus because you were trying so, so hard not to get up out of your seat and conform to the behavioural requirements of that setting.

These access policies try to mitigate some of the unfairness these children face in education, but really they can only have a small mitigating effect. If your child isn’t in a position to need these then he or she has, has always had and will always have huge advantages over children who do need them. Your attempt to prevent these children from mitigating such unfairness and even bringing the children’s starting points a tiny bit closer to one another is extremely surprising and rather brings to mind the phrase about how when you have always been privileged, a movement towards equality feels like oppression. I’m sure none of us want to teach our kids that the best way to live is to scramble in a gleeful way over the heads of anyone who has been born at a disadvantage. Or do you think that disabled children and their parents should “know their place” and leave school without any educational qualifications?”

Or maybe not, in reality. I’ve never been brave enough to say that out loud to anyone in real life, obviously. But this subject does rather grate on me, as you can probably tell. And breathe.

Mute the group and if it sometimes has info you actually need then just skim it every few days (or get someone else to do it for you).

Honestly every time I read one of these threads I thank Om for the fact that Whatsapp didn’t exist when mine were this age.

I think for some people the alternative is "Tough. If he cant write properly he should try harder. Not my kids fault" blah blah.

Some people will always see a perceived advantage where none exists. Yes our kids got/get extra time. Why? Because they suffered an incurable brain injury that will affect the rest of their lives. Do they want their kids to have that? Of course not, WE dont want our kids to have that FFS! They just want all that they have, plus what everyone else has as well regardless of why others have what they dont have.

DS2 had additional time for his dyslexia. It did mitigate for his slower reading and writing speeds. It didn't mitigate for his spelling and ability to apply multiple levels of expectation (e.g. legible writing, spelling, punctuation etc... he had skills in isolation but struggles with combining them)
When he got 100 on his SPAG paper, his weakness for spelling meant that he had to score higher on the punctuation and grammar side of the mark scheme to overall reach the threshold of expected standard.
Without additional time, he wouldn't have answered enough questions to get enough marks.

Time doesn't subsitute for skills or knowledge.

DS1 also has dyslexia with side orders of dyspraxia and autism.
He did SATs in 2022 where lengthy Covid rules coming in shortly after his diagnosis really hampered dialogue with the school and getting his needs met. His teacher who I finally met for the first time less than 3 months before SATs said "he's doing well enough" and refused to consider access arrangements. He was confidently predicted GD for maths for years.
He didn't get it.
Not even by a narrow margin. "He got anxious" was the excuse. Well duh, that's why autism is a legitimate reason for access arrangements... plus the dyslexia and dyspraxia affecting his ability to apply his knowledge to the paper being substantial reasons in their own right.

Access arrangements aren't about meeting "good enough" it's about attempting to reasonably mitigate for barriers to show knowledge and skills on the test paper, and giving the best chance avaliable. As someone with no barriers to learning, access arrangements would not have assisted me as I could already comfortably write out what was required in the standard time allocation.

Funny how after telling DS1's experience to DS2's teacher, it was all sorted...

For SATs, DS1 gets the last laugh. School will set realistic targets for GCSE, and he'll look great value added compared to SATs. DS2 needed to do well and have that nuture for his own confidence. GCSEs will genuinely matter.

True. I'd mute it and step back.

I absolutely agree that they are better than nothing, but unfortunately I’m not sure they can put our children in the same position they would have been in had they never had those difficulties in the first place - they aren’t an equaliser. I’m not sure what could do that, really. Perhaps choosing not to test them on spelling in the first place, in the same way as we wouldn’t test a child with a hearing impairment by reading the exam questions aloud in a busy room. It might not be absolutely impossible for them to access the questions, and there are of course strategies they can use to try to help, but it’s always going to be a damn sight harder for them to do well, however much time they get.

Dyslexic DD has exams next week. Because she has had to put so much effort into practising spelling (for which she has to sit two papers), she has inevitably had less time to spend on other subjects and will probably do worse on those. I accept it’s just part of her difficulties, and we work with it, but I have to laugh a bit at the idea that everything is solved by her being given an extra 15 minutes.

’Not being as clever’ isn’t how you qualify for extra time.