Children should be seen and not heard

[ItsUpToYou]

Does anyone else think we’re slowly (very slowly) heading back to this attitude towards children? From the families who plonk iPads in front of their kids at every unstructured moment to keep them quiet, to the constant complaints on MN about children (who aren’t plonked on their iPads) playing too loudly in their gardens or wherever else, it seems like the overall consensus is that children either need to be perfectly placid at all times or completely silent.

Everything is so structured and regimented for children nowadays in a way that it wasn’t when I was growing up in the 90s. The way DM described her childhood in the 60s and 70s sounds ever freer than mine was.

AIBU to feel a bit sorry for the current generation of children (and feel super pressured as a parent to make sure my children appear “perfectly placid” at all times for fear of judgement!)

Deference and consideration are two different things. I don’t expect deference from anyone, child or adult. I’m not royalty. Neither are children.

In the 70s when I was a young child we never went out for any meals so there was no need to sit quietly. We sometimes went to pubs where we would be banished to another room or outside because no children were allowed in the bar. This didn't feel like neglect, it was actually fun because there were games and other children to play with. We were actually not expected to sit nicely with adults, we were seen as separate and went away while adults chatted.
In the 80s, when I was an older child and a teen, we only very rarely went out for a meal (could count on one hand) so it was quite exciting. We didn't have Ipads obviously, but at home we could have any amount of screen time we wanted. We could watch TV when we liked and spent entire Saturday mornings doing so. The difference was, you couldn't watch on demand. Likewise, we had handheld video games and bigger portable early computer games and we could play on these all day if we liked. No adult I knew really thought anything of it.
Edited to add: when I was sitting at the table with my family I often used to read my book whilst eating and no one ever told me to stop! We also used to have the TV on constantly during meal times. It's not something I did for my own family.

Some of these responses are so judgy it's unbelievable. Seeing a kid on a screen in a restaurant / bus or wherever is 10 minutes of their day where you watch and judge. Yesterday for example I took my toddler to the park, we chatted all the way there, she ran around for a good 2 hours in the playground, we played hide and seek and then built sandcastles in the sandpit. Had a snack in the cafe and read some books in the cafe play corner.

I then let her watch The Gruffalo in the buggy on the 15 min walk home. Shoot me down if you will, but she was tired, she hates the buggy and I needed to get her home via a very busy road. I'm sure plenty of judgy pants folks saw us and looked down on me, tbh I don't give a fuck. They don't know us or our situation, my child has at most 1 hour of screen time per day and only at weekends.

For what its worth me and almost every kid I knew watched plenty of VHS videos in the 90s! Nobody insulted our parents for it, because only now it's fashionable to do so.

I agree, my six grandchildren age 6 to 14 have great conversations with my sharp minded 90 year old dad.
he learns from them and they learn from him. talking with them helps their communication with others.
So hard to judge kids these days though as we often don’t know if it’s bad behaviour or ADHD or other problem

This is not a new thing.

In fact I’d say parents in general talk and interact with their children far more than in the past. Of course you’ll always get some who don’t bug in general.

Why is that a bad thing? I'm all for children fitting into society, but ultimately adults have responsibilities and perks that children don't and that's how it should be. I didn't like the company of children when I was one, didn't enjoy childish things and now, as an adult, I have no inner child or love of anything childish. I happily arrange my life to avoid them as much as possible and it works, but that doesn't make me miserable or bitter - it just makes me a person who cherishes adult time and peace.

I think there is a lot of bad parenting going on and has got worse over the last decade or so .Children used to eat at the dinner table and we're used to sitting down eating , not being entertained by iPads etc and even worse without headphones there is a lot of entitlement from parents too. Your children are not cute, they are irritating to others, don't let them wander around restaurants or be noisy. It's bloody rude.

I think everyone is entitled to their opinion, but the more that people share this opinion, the more miserable life is for children (and their parents too!)

My kids are older teens but I did occasionally encounterd peopel pre judging them and their behavior and making us feel unwelcome - even at some child centric locations pantomimes etc few times they'd lalter come over and sort of alplogise liek I can't believe how well behavioed your kids are. It did make it harder to take them out.

However last decade there has been a shocking decline in some parenting - and some kids are just allowed to run riot and cause upset for everyone else.

I'm not sure if it's a chicken and egg situation.

I think also in daily life kids are seen out less and less on streets in public - so some people do seem to worry when they are and a few get nasty.

This is very interesting. Every week, we go out to eat lunch with my youngest. DS is on his iPad most of the time we are eating.

Not pictured:

• the reason why we're even there is because his older brother is with his tutor, so the younger one has no choice but to tag along for his older brother's activity.
• we'd just been to church, where he sat for an hour drawing, or cuddling, or listening. Or attending the children's litergy sessions.
• after church, he plays for around 30mins with his cousins (a lot of running around!).
• by the time we reach the centre, his energy levels are low and he's hungry, so we order food and he gets some time on his iPad before either doing his homework, or we go outside to the playground, or go for a walk (his dirty boots live in the boot of our car for this reason).
• he is very well behaved in social spaces, we don't use it for behaviour management, it's for his enjoyment.
• we all go home to do an activity together before dinner and school prep.

I laugh at anyone seeing me and judging. I wish more people wouldn't feel judged when they are trying their best. Other parents bring their kids in and I'm sure they have wonderful conversations with them at the table. DC are not allowed to eat with any screens at home, or elsewhere. DS2 (who is 5 year old kid with 101 existential questions) will be fine, so if you see me, you won't need to pity him. Ta.

What a sad post/opinion 😔 I wonder what has made you feel this way and go to such lengths to arrange your life to avoid children as much as possible. Seems very odd.

Is it because it’s fashionable? Or is it because lots more research and information is available to us now compared to the 90s and we now understand the impact of excessive screen/tech use on developing brains? There’s also a lot of information out there relating to screen size and impact - the smaller the screen, the worse the impact on the brain and the visual field. So TV is actually the “best” form of screen use for a small child as opposed to a phone, which might go some way to explaining the greater impact on children today as lots of their screen interaction is via phone and not TV/video.

I’ve noticed this too - GP surgery is blank walls, stark lines of chairs and a screen with waiting times, that’s it. Same happens with adult classes at my pool, plus too mornings a week when pool is off limits as reserved for the over ‘60s (so younger adults can’t use it then either). Our local town park’s playground equipment is so ancient that I used some of it when I was a kid back in the ‘80s - significant parts of it is now cordoned off as being unsafe.

It’s embedded in government policy-making too; think how children and young people were completely deprioritised during the covid years and their aftermath, and the way Education as a policy area is almost an afterthought - even Labour barely mentioned it in their manifesto before the last election. Anything involving children is overlooked and underfunded, and I think this can only worsen as the population ages.

Again, imagine if you switched out the word "children" for "elderly". The whole post would still work but you'd be getting horrified accusations of ageism.

I agree, Television is communal and kids play in front of it half watching half playing- me and my siblings did for hours and hours if it was raining, in 80s I recall.
Small screens are very solitary and seem to totally absorb the user In a different way.
I think we as adults actually know this from our own experience. This is evidenced by the amount of adults who seem glued to their phones unable to look up while walking down street or crossing road/ pushing buggy’s.
Or checking their messages /socials every four seconds

Interetsing about the GP surgury becuase the same happened here - toys have gone.

Not noticed so much with other services though kids swim play sessions are fewer one closed pool and one not doing them anymore - so local one attched to school is left. They have started replaceing play equipment in parks- I joked to DH that someone with young DGC must have just joined the council - though we are in rare high growth area for kids - cheap housing -but many private children related things like soft play and activity parks have sprung up in last decade.

I've read reports and newspaper artilces that say as population ages matenrity and children related services will be fewer and more concentrated - adding another pull towards urban areas for families and young people.

Perhaps because so many of them behave obnoxiously and their parents allow them do so. And even if they’re behaving the presence of children in a restaurant/hotel/club has a completely different feel.

I used to like kids. Love would be too strong a word but I liked them and I’ve worked in childcare but now I dislike most and prefer to avoid them. I’m autistic and very noise averse and I find their noise unbearable and their parents increasingly inconsiderate hence all the bloody screaming that has been mentioned on this thread. I’ve just returned from Sainsbury’s and yet again 2 children were literally screaming for no apparent reason and their parent just allowed it. And if they aren’t screaming they are running around.

I like next door’s child. She’s a great kid with parents who actually parent. Unfortunately too many don’t bother to consider anyone but themselves and their children.

Having had a family of 3 move opposite with 3 of the noisiest kids I’ve encountered I’m done with living next to kids so I’m planning a move.

I appreciate it’s a developmental stage and much of their behaviour is due to that but it doesn’t make it any more pleasant and too many parents have no interest in managing it in a way that allows their children to have fun while also being considerate to others.

I also avoid drunk people and hen and stag parties before anyone says that adults can be obnoxious too.(I know that)

Besides as a previous poster said I’m an adult. I want to do adult things. Why would I want to spend time with random children?

I am nice to friends’ cousins’ children when they’re around btw but I’m also very grateful when they’re gone.

100% agree. We’ve set house rules for the adults around our phones after realising we were being quite hypocritical in expecting children not to become addicted to something addictive when the adults can’t overcome it! We agreed on apps
set to an hour a day, used after bedtime or during breaks at work (like now 😅), no phones on dog walk, no phones at table either at home or if out for a meal. The difference it’s made to how often we talk to each other is embarrassing, we were clearly doing far too much doom scrolling etc before! Despite being 80s/90s kids the TV has never been an issue for either of us, it’s on for maybe an hour a day before bed or for a family movie night. It’s definitely less addictive.

With respect - why do you think I should care?

Just look at any of the threads about boomers.....

Nothing made me this way. And my life is not sad at all. It is filled with joy and laughter - that of adults. I Have very little need or desire to be around children.

You sound like a delight!

Just an observation, but I think it’s interesting how much this thread has become MY child does/ doesn’t behave whatever way because of MY parenting choices - and lots of judgement about other individual parenting choices, which I think speaks to how child rearing has become more individualised & less communal.

When we were kids playing out, it wouldn’t necessarily be our own parents who told us off if we were out of line, it could just as easily be another adult in the neighbourhood/ community we had a relationship with.

I do think there’s another conversation connected to this about how we as a society have lost alot of our third places - places that aren’t school/ work - where you can just hang out for not a lot of money & the impact that loss had on childhood. For example parks are less well maintained & therefore maybe dodgy/ more dangerous for kids to hang out unsupervised, libraries - where younger kids used to do rhyme time etc - closed, cuts to Sure Start, the commodification of expensive baby/ toddler classes as opposed to something in a church hall or whatever, less grassroots sports, significantly less youth clubs etc etc

If anything I think society is gonig the other way. Parents are too scared to discipline their children, or are too proud to admit their little angels are naughty so throw money at doctors for a 'label' diagnosis so they can excuse themselves from parenting (I dont know how many times i have to say it but real SEN parents I am not talking about you)

I do believe in the "children should be seen and not heard" to an extent though, i raise my own children to be respectful and not behave like feral animals in public, even if that principle is seen as inhumane by most people around here but at least I always know where my kids are and what theyre doing

Totally. There was a lot more "go and play" when I was a kid - and off you went, and the adults got on with adult stuff. Adults did what they wanted (mostly) and kids had to fit in around it. I think the "disgust for kids" that a lot of people show these days stems from resentment of how the kids have taken over their lives. People with small kids often have no leisure time / alone time / couple time these days - all spare time revolves around the kids.

For most of human history, the assumption was that kids existed to serve and benefit the parents. Now, in the developed world, or parts of it anyway, it's the other way round, and parents resent it.