Children should be seen and not heard

[ItsUpToYou]

Does anyone else think we’re slowly (very slowly) heading back to this attitude towards children? From the families who plonk iPads in front of their kids at every unstructured moment to keep them quiet, to the constant complaints on MN about children (who aren’t plonked on their iPads) playing too loudly in their gardens or wherever else, it seems like the overall consensus is that children either need to be perfectly placid at all times or completely silent.

Everything is so structured and regimented for children nowadays in a way that it wasn’t when I was growing up in the 90s. The way DM described her childhood in the 60s and 70s sounds ever freer than mine was.

AIBU to feel a bit sorry for the current generation of children (and feel super pressured as a parent to make sure my children appear “perfectly placid” at all times for fear of judgement!)

Because other people would join in and ‘parent’ if the parents weren’t around. It takes a village and all that…

Try posting an AIBU about someone else disciplining or telling off your child now and see where that gets you.

Excellent point, and I’ve also noticed that while this issue is very prevalent, it can also vary quite a lot from area to area. Where we currently live there is an awful lot of barking instructions to children and very little in the way of conversation, whereas in another area we visited over the Easter break most parents we saw were very clearly interacting and chatting more with their kids. Very random, but it was particularly noticeable at the pool/gym we visited, which was part of the same chain as the one we use regularly at home - a much less aggressive, frazzled atmosphere, and a lot more conversation between adults and kids. We are actually in the process of moving area partly in order be among more families who value the same things and parent in a similar way to us.

Fewer people are having babies and I think people are less tolerant of dc. We are certainly less child centric compared to
other European countries.

Although I agree with all posts about making restaurants child friendly, offering colouring etc, love the sound of families having fun, we’re at the restaurant to be with our own family/group. My children wouldn’t want a random child coming up to our table to talk to them and i’d be looking over to see who the parents were. We would say hi but would then expect the parents to actually parent and supervise their own child. To me, that just sounds like palming your child off on another family.

Restaurants can be fun and child friendly but my children wouldn’t interrupt another families meal out.

Problem is parents don’t want to parent any more!

I think parents are expected to parent far more now vs the past!

You sound lovely.

Kids don’t intentionally want to make peoples live a misery.

You sound as if you’d find misery in an empty room though.

Thank you for saying this. My toddler often gets to watch a cartoon during a meal in a restaurant, especially if the food is slow to come out and ultimately this is for the other diner's benefit. Before hand we'll talk, colour in, do sticker books, play with toys but after a while they've had enough and want out of their high chair. When this happens they may start shouting, throwing things, kicking the table etc. Rather than disrupting other diners, we choose to let them watch some cartoons with barely any sound on which leads to peace and quiet until the end of the meal. I've had some looks for doing this in the past, but they're only seeing a tiny snapshot of our lives and judging us as though we do this everyday at home. We don't, and I'm sure those who judge would be far more displeased if we chose to allow our toddler to continue to shout, squeal and throw things.

I genuinely feel sorry for kids, in the park, at home and in the garden let them play. However I just been out for dinner and family were letting their 6-9 year old race around the table. We moved our table before we sat down as if out for dinner, I don’t want to have kids racing around me. This wasn’t a family scenario and I wasn’t impressed.

I do wonder if we suddenly became more intolerant of kids, or if we always were, but because there was no internet and social media, it wasn’t known as a general consensus. I have very vivid memories of me and my cousins roaming around from dusk till dawn with no access to phone at the age of 6. I mean that’s unthinkable now for parents to be ok with their young DC out not knowing where they are.

I think its a toxic combination of gentle parenting meaning children are denied very clear rules and boundaries, never hear the word no and are never expected to moderate their behaviour in a way appropriate to their environment.

And add into that the massive change in how people live. If your kids are so exhausted after a day of entirely structured activities, perhaps dragging them to a restaurant because you want to go isn't actually in their best interests, and really you should go home so they can chill in their own comfortable environment. Or perhaps we all just admit that kids have screens pushed in front of them so the parents can have an easy life for an hour, and because the kids have been trained to associate meals out with screens.

I don't dislike children. I dislike poorly behaved children, and ineffective parents. The number of both is much much greater than even 10 years ago.

Don’t agree at all! Or maybe it’s the area I live near (quite privileged) but kid’s lives are elevated here. Many are allowed to run around restaurants, supermarkets etc. Thats not ‘seen but not heard’. What I am seeing is generally a lack of empathy and kindness and with it more of a sense of entitlement and that’s completely on the parents. I am an older parent and our DC is raised to be thoughtful, kind and resilient, I know I will get flamed for this as I know it’s not an age thing but manners were huge in my day and I had quite left wing parents who worked in a deprived area and gave back a lot so maybe that’s why it’s rubbed off on me. What I find is often this is not reciprocated, which means DC often loses out. I just want parents to raise their kids to think of others, especially in the current climate. I don’t care if the kids are noisy in the process or messy or chaotic. Those children who are thoughtful or curious, or even just interested in others outside of their immediate circle therefore really stand out to me these days. Our DC is not academic but tries so hard and will share anything. This stuff is more important to us tbh.

Or perhaps we all just admit that kids have screens pushed in front of them so the parents can have an easy life for an hour, and because the kids have been trained to associate meals out with screens.

Is that so wrong though? Is it a new thing that parents have sometimes wanted an easy life for an hour?

Yes it's wrong. You're pushing kids to be in an environment which is frankly shit for them and everyone else around you, because your desire to have a meal out comes before anything and anyone else, your own children included.

@MAFSsaddict I think young children are intrinsically pretty kind.

Don’t agree at all . I’m from the generation where kids were seen and not heard . My grandkids get full time attention from their parents non stop . No screens either . They also get full time attention from us the grandparents. They run around the house and scream sometimes but that I find so annoying. That’s a learnt behaviour. I think they get so mollycoddled and they can’t actually entertain themselves.

Get a grip!

Exactly.

That mindless shrieking was not a thing a generation ago.

Why is seeing a child on ipad shit for me though? I was in pizza express yesterday & it didn't bother me or alter my experience what other families did. I don't think parents putting their own wants & needs first occasionally is a bad thing.

There are fewer spaces/ opportunities for children to let off steam without being a bother to the general public.

Lots of pubs/ family restaurants had decent outdoor play areas in the 80s/ 90s and most have gone. I didn't often have to quietly entertain myself with a book and colouring for the full duration when I was a child. Running laps around the dining area would not have been tolerated, and there was appropriate space allocated for children to safely burn energy off. Win, win.

There are now more parents who tolerate their children making excessive noise for the setting and don't consider the impact on people in the surrounding area, whether it's the child themself or their device blaring out. There are also more parents who object to critique about their parenting/ child's behaviour.

I was recently in a hospital waiting room and it was refreshing when a mum got some picture books off the rack and was reading them at a gentle, conversational volume to her young child and chatting with her.

The problem isn't kids... it is their entitled parents.
Kids want to make noise and play. Some parents think a Costa is the right place for that.
The vast majority of parents do a grand job and would never dream of inflicting their kids on people who are not interested. But some do, and they stand out like a sore thumb.

That mindless shrieking was not a thing a generation ago.

That's a load of crap.

My theory is that entertainment is more "lively" and shouty than in previous generations, even on content like CBeebies, which makes it a normalised way of communicating. The worst culprit is YouTube with lots of shrieking on videos.

20, 15, 10 years ago it was not a regular behaviour in my youth group. Since 2020, we regularly have to remind the children that shrieking and screaming is not appropriate. Most weeks. Often several times a night.

The timing co-incides with increased use of tablets and internet based entertainment and introduction at a younger age. Our current cohort were toddlers/ pre-schoolers during the lockdowns.

The issue is lazy and entitled parents who raise kids who are equally entitled and are not taught how to behave in public and lack basic manners.

@BogRollBOGOF whenever my parents went out for family meals the vast majority of the places had play equipment as you say & this is still very normal in Europe.

Hell is other people. And other people's children.