Children should be seen and not heard

[ItsUpToYou]

Does anyone else think we’re slowly (very slowly) heading back to this attitude towards children? From the families who plonk iPads in front of their kids at every unstructured moment to keep them quiet, to the constant complaints on MN about children (who aren’t plonked on their iPads) playing too loudly in their gardens or wherever else, it seems like the overall consensus is that children either need to be perfectly placid at all times or completely silent.

Everything is so structured and regimented for children nowadays in a way that it wasn’t when I was growing up in the 90s. The way DM described her childhood in the 60s and 70s sounds ever freer than mine was.

AIBU to feel a bit sorry for the current generation of children (and feel super pressured as a parent to make sure my children appear “perfectly placid” at all times for fear of judgement!)

I was a child of the 60’s and 70’s and although we had far more freedom than kids of today, it wasn’t a case of children should be seen but not heard. We could play, sometimes noisily but we were raised to have consideration to others.If you annoyed someone with your noise,you apologised. Today, if you complain about other peoples noise you get abuse. This doesn’t relate only to children. The majority of the time it’s grown adults behaving badly. Not a good role model to children.

The ‘children should be seen and not heard’ thing never really went away.
Even though we don’t raise children that way anymore (thank goodness) many who were raised that way are now older and are very triggered by children who aren’t. They weren’t allowed to ‘shriek’ in the garden. They weren’t allowed to be noisy and messy and have normal kid emotions so they think that when kids do behave that way they have been parented badly and are ‘entitled’. They can’t handle it as they are conditioned to believe that is how children ‘should’ behave.

It’s also a peculiarly British thing with very strong historical roots. (A bit like the old saying ‘do as I say not as I do’ 🙄 ) It’s deeply ingrained in our psyche and those of us who are breaking the patterns are frowned upon (as is the case when people break norms). If you go to parts of S Europe especially Spain and Italy you will see that they aren’t triggered by children being noisy in the way older Brits are. They don’t flinch when a child has a meltdown in a restaurant. They don’t judge the parents. They just see it as a normal part of childhood and are generally very affectionate towards children.

Perhaps this is down to the way far too many kids behave these days.
Two incidents I have witnessed from this past week alone.
I was in the local shop and 3 boys came in (about 9 or 10) with a Bluetooth speaker blasting loud swearing music. No adults with them. Shouting and screaming running down the aisle. They threw sweets on the floor and at each other. The manager approached them and told them to leave to which the younger one started screaming that she hit him. The shop was busy so plenty of witnesses to dispute this as well as cctv.

Earlier in the week I was out dog training in a group. Kids about the same age on bikes circling us barking at the dogs. They were asked to move on which they did only to return with biscuits a few minutes later and started throwing them at us. In the end we moved on.

There is no way we would have behaved like that when we were young. There is no way we would have spoken back to adults let alone throwing stuff at them.

It’s not the noise of children playing thats the issue - it’s children having screaming competitions while their parents ignore them.

it’s not children watching iPads that the issue - it’s children watching iPads on full volume while their parents ignore them.

Growing up most kids I know were taught to respect others around them especially re nosies It’s that consideration in my experience thats changed.

Community has massively declined in a lot of places. People have become a lot more selfish and self-centred, and public behaviour has got a lot worse. A lot of people keep themselves to themselves, understandably. Families are smaller and often spread out.

What this means is that a lot of parents are parenting their children essentially as small family "islands" rather than anchored firmly to others within their communities. They get no help from the community nor do they feel particularly bound by its constraints. When your "community" is neighbours you don't speak to, a few bored teenagers who take over the kids" playground, a lot of folk who seem to resent your children's existence and some drunk guy outside Tesco who is always threatening to beat someone up, is it any wonder that parents retreat into their family unit and parent their children pragmatically according to their own family values (which may involve letting a lot go) while ignoring "community"ones?

When I was a kid, we played out a lot. We also read a lot, and watched TV when the children’s programmes were on.

So in the evenings, our parents weren’t overwhelmed by having to entertain us constantly, and as a result, had the humour and patience to play board games with us.

It’s a completely different ball game now. Parents accompany their children on the journey to and from school. Take them to clubs; arrange play dates, and are with them all of the time. Both parties need space.

That’s why screens have become the norm.

I have no issue with kids chattering away but when they start screaming, squealing, shouting or playing on their tablets with the volume up high I very quickly lose patience.

Kids can be well behaved without having their wonderful youthful spirit knocked out of them.

I don’t think that was the case for everyone! I’m a 90s child and as small children we had a movie night on a Friday. So 2-3 hours of tv a week. I’m still really low screen as an adult and we allow approx 1-2 hours a week for my DSD (although more in practice across her whole life as we’re 50:50). It’s not really been planned or discussed that way, the tv just wasn’t a focus as a child, I remember being shocked that it seemed to just be on 24/7 in my friends houses, and I’ve just carried that on.

To me that sounds like happy children playing and exploring. A toddler really doesn't give a fuck about how loud the giggle and shriek.

Nor do a bunch of primary aged kids playing sport or whatever game they've imagined up.

Op I feel like you're right. Parents can't do right for wrong. I don't jave my kids in front of screens so they are out playing and creating an imaginary world in the garden, the drive, the living room and their bedrooms. Playing with balls and on trampolines, with the slide and swings I'm the garden and of course when we take them to the parks.

Kids need to be able to feel secure enough to explore their world and so it the best way they know how which is through play. Don't get me wrong wouldn't condone or allow shouting in anger, mouthing off or profanity. But shrieks of delight at kicking a goal, or catching ball for the first time? He'll ues and I'll be clapping and making racket with them. It's their home and they do as they like. They have the right to enjoy their homes as much as you do. If you don't like it, move away from the communities thay have children. They aren't up oast 8pm making noise or in the garden before 9am on a Sunday. It's all within reason.

I do think that most kids would prefer not to be in restaurants

It's the parent's need, not the child's

Some parents have no concept of where it's appropriate to take a toddler - there were two in the Cartier exhibition at the V&A at the weekend, it's not kid friendly, nothing for small children there but because they wanted to see it, we all have to listen to their kids tantrumming and screaming and crying.

Don't think anyone's more intolerant of kids than they used to be though, always disliked screaming noisy kids.

I listened to something yesterday tht suggested although parents do more for their children, they spend less time just being with them eg: going about their day ( shopping, cleaning, cooking, socialising) with their children.

I agree. We now live overseas and I see a stark difference when I return to Uk. It actually makes me feel like we aren’t welcome anywhere.

However, I will say, British children typically are much louder as a group. I don’t know how but for example if we visit a local playground I never hear screaming or shouting.
From Kindergarten things like shouting across the room or playground just aren’t done, adult or child always gets up and goes to the person and talks. I’m amazed how calm a playground at kindergarten or school with 50 odd children here can be.
When in laws visit I always notice how MIL is the loudest person in town shouting to Ds wherever they go, even to just show him things not for danger or anything

I think children where we live are treated more respectful and more like adults equally. They are expected to listen and behave from young, but are given a lot of independence in exchange. School starts are 6, and from then they are expected to walk or take bus to school alone. Only those driven will be taken by adult, but they will just open door at school finish and they go off alone to find car.

Hi as a boomer I had a q960s and 1970s childhood and albeit we had more freedom, life was very adult centred. No play areas at pubs or kids meals. If you were around adults you were expected to be quiet, no toys taken to the pub, one sodt drink to last all night, adults didn't engage with children. Any adults would feel free to tell you off for the most minor infringement. It wasn't all bad as behaviour generally was better, not always.

And shrieking at sports doesn’t seem to happen. I take Ds to a football
class every week, and I don’t even hear the coach shout, she brings everyone in to discuss and then they start. If issue she brings them into middle again, not shouting across field. This is a group of around 12 children 4-6 year olds

I'll never understand parents who act like their kid shrieking and being a selfish nuisance is unavoidable. It's not. Teach them. That's what a parent does. You actively guide and teach your child. If they can't stop shrieking, or if they are a bother to others, then they stay with you and in your sight - don't let them just run around aimlessly and play out if they can't behave themselves.

"kids don't know better" - that's why you teach them. "they're only a kid!" - yes they are, teach them. Lazy.

We were in a restaurant on Sunday, there was a massive table of about 20 right at the back. A small child was wailing, and you could hear it all over the restaurant. Clearly their parents didn’t fancy disrupting their own meal by taking the child outside. This went on for over 20 minutes, would stop for a few minutes then start again. One couple were seated next to us, and got up and left without ordering.

No one wants to hear that. Parent your children.

Yep agree. It seems it's totally fine for people to openly say on here that kids are annoying/ badly behaved / horrible. Imagine the outrage if someone switched the word kid with the word elderly??
My 10 year old DS offered to come to the supermarket with me the other day to help me find the bits I need (other child opted to stay at home with his dad and play football)
Some random man of about 50 actually told him off in the queue because I was holding the basket not him! Told him he should be carrying stuff for his mum. "It's about respect"
I mean WTF???

I’d say the opposite is true, many families life’s are children centric, compared to the 80/90’s when I grew up. We would have a few days out a year, or a holiday. Otherwise we played out with friends / on our computers. Our parents didn’t entertain us constantly at weekends. Yes kids might have iPads / iPhones etc now to keep quiet in pubs / restaurants but I would say we are far from what you describe as a society.

It’s more about neglectful parenting and not teaching children basic manners and consideration for others.

Definitely this. So many parents can't be arsed to engage with their children on the child's level or actually parent, but I remember some kids being like this in the 90s, I don't think it's anything new.

I was reading a thread on here complaining about kids playing out & having to throw their balls back & I thought exactly the same thing.

I think it’s especially true of older kids & teenagers - as a society we seem to have forgotten that developmentally kids needs might mean they are sometimes loud or taking up space in a different way to grown it. I was on a tram & some young teens were laughing at chatting - no music blaring from their phones, no swearing or inappropriate language - just vocally having fun & the dirty looks people were shooting them made me very sad for them.

Kids need to be kids - even if they’re sometimes annoying!!

notanothernamechange24

your examples are more delinquent though- there was always this- in the 90s as a teen I worked in a shop after school and we had a lot of horrible kids who’d come in and shout at us or blast music, that’s not the same as kids playing too loudly

That was the thread that inspired me!

I had a random kid of about 9 scream in my face at an attraction recently. Her and her brothers had been chasing around being really loud indoors and had nearly knocked an elderly lady flying. Parents entirely oblivious, I told her to watch out for other people and she screamed right in my face. I was really taken aback. The parents said nothing. This wouldn’t have been acceptable even when my kids (young adults/older teen) were little. These days parents seem incapable of managing their offspring’s behaviour.

i have no issue with kids being kids. The kids making noise playing out don’t worry me. Teenagers talking loudly in the bus don’t worry my. But this trend of lazy parenting and never pulling your kids up even when their behaviour is unacceptable isn’t great and it’s going to lead to a lot of entitled young people who think they can do whatever they like.

Does anyone else think we’re slowly (very slowly) heading back to this attitude towards children?

If only!

Only joking but I don't see any evidence of this. Kids are on ipads because they want to be; most parents I know try to ration screen time but find it useful every so often. They're not being forced into silence. And there are plenty of kids still running riot and shrieking in most public places.