Children should be seen and not heard

[ItsUpToYou]

Does anyone else think we’re slowly (very slowly) heading back to this attitude towards children? From the families who plonk iPads in front of their kids at every unstructured moment to keep them quiet, to the constant complaints on MN about children (who aren’t plonked on their iPads) playing too loudly in their gardens or wherever else, it seems like the overall consensus is that children either need to be perfectly placid at all times or completely silent.

Everything is so structured and regimented for children nowadays in a way that it wasn’t when I was growing up in the 90s. The way DM described her childhood in the 60s and 70s sounds ever freer than mine was.

AIBU to feel a bit sorry for the current generation of children (and feel super pressured as a parent to make sure my children appear “perfectly placid” at all times for fear of judgement!)

That’s true, we shouldn’t judge on a snapshot of someone’s week. As a teacher though the ongoing use of tech definitely pervades their lives more than the TV did ours and it’s having huge impacts on education. I’ve only been qualified twelve years and concentration, imagination, fine and gross motor skills, fitness and stamina, communication, and lots of other skills, have declined massively. Some kids I teach don’t leave the house at the weekend by the parents own admission and we’ve got 5/6 year olds with iPhones and illegal tiktok accounts. I think what’s happening to childhood is tragic and genuinely worry for the future workforce who are in people facing roles. I know lots of them will have tech based jobs but we are always going to need customer facing employees too and I think in 10-15 years time we’ll be seeing the impact on these industries. My Dad recently retired from a managerial position and the amount of adults at 16-20 who were being disciplined for inappropriate tech use at work e.g. phones on shop floor, inappropriate social media use, etc, was crazy.

I work in a similar role to your dad. Not only do we have major issues keeping young employees off their phones, we now have the phenomenon of parents calling in sick for them or calling to complain about disciplinary proceedings being invoked.

There's a lot more loud and inconsiderate behaviour from adults now than there was 20 or 30 years ago. It's not surprising children are following suit - that's where they are learning it from.

I'm getting tired of being in public places with adults yelling to one another, and playing crap music on phones without a speaker. Children are going to grow up thinking that's an acceptable way to behave because they see it all around them, even if their own parents are trying to model consideration for others.

I have kids (adult) but it really saddens me when I see a parent with a child (on a train or in a cafe) and they never once interact with the child. I’ve seen it so many times it makes me wonder how the child ever learns to speak. I would constantly interact with my children so they were very articulate from a young age.

Without a doubt there are too many feral kids about now. Neglectful parenting 🙄

It’s crazy! How is that dealt with? Are you allowed to just say you can’t discuss the employment of another adult with them? We definitely see an increase of parents not wanting to back up school consequences etc. - one last year told me “but he won’t like me!” I was so tempted to reply that if your pre teen likes you 100% of the time, you’re doing it wrong 🙈.

You’re right but I think it’s a bit chicken and egg. Children who are engaged with are also more likely to be well behaved. So when we as a society decide we should ignore/disapprove all children who aren’t our own, it does incrementally have an impact too. One of my kids has special needs, but I am super careful with how my children behave in public and we do always try to be considerate. But the general sense that you are unwelcome, even in low key cafes near play parks (not at fancy restaurants at 7pm!) is draining.

Yes, we just tell them we won’t discuss anything with them. It’s more common now and is really irritating.

I don’t know what the answer is though to the issues young people are facing. We have employees who are too anxious to come into the office and want to work from home, however their productivity is far lower at home, so we often don’t sign off on that. So then their mum calls, and I’m back to explaining this isn’t how the world of work operates.

Yet, if you have a nice chat with your child (probably include some unnecessarily complex info just to keep yourself entertained!) you’d be accused of performance parenting. It’s a bit lose-lose as a parent at the moment. I mostly ignore it and am lucky to have supportive people in my life. But I work with vulnerable parents and I see how crushing it is for them.

I've noticed this. Once upon a time a doctors waiting room had a generous area of toys to play with, some books, paper, crayons, perhaps a small table and chairs.

My own doctors waiting room now is rows of chairs and is mostly in silence and as a parent you feel out of place if you even chit chat to your child to keep them occupied.

It definitely feels these days that the UK is geared towards baby boomers - leisure centres are full of gym classes aimed at the over 60's, during the school holidays the kids are all ushered out of the swimming pool at the prime time so that a group of older folk can take an aqua aerobics lesson in peace. I'm sure in my childhood during school holidays the regular timetable was paused so that children had their chance to use facilities.

Do you know how many kids were dragged to pubs in the 90s and you’re moaning about a parent who dares to have one meal they don’t have to cook because they’re selfish?

Honestly it’s the idea that parents aren’t ever allowed an easy hour that has changed. A generation ago no one batted an eye at a parent not directly engaging in their children at all times, it wasn’t a desired or expected thing.

I’d much rather performative interaction than none at all. At least it will still get good communication results. I never did it performatively (that wouldn’t have crossed my mind it was even a thing). I never baby talked them either. It’s been some years since I was parenting youngsters (early 2000s) it sounds like things have changed since then (no smart phones or ipads at that time).

Our doctor’s surgery still has the little table with children’s books. It’s quite well laid out as well, no rows of chairs etc.

Each place is probably quite different. Shame about the pool though as older people (I’m one) tend to have much more flexibility with their time than parents of younger children.

We have ‘children’s’ doctors where I live. Children aren’t expected to to to a regular Gp surgery when ill, they have places for 0-18 year olds. That are child friendly with patient nurses and doctors trained to give vaccinations and see grumpy children who are ill. Far better as then you aren’t having to keep kids silent from old people.

Seen and not heard doesn't mean being plonked in front of a device though. It is knowing how to behave courteously in public. It is teaching your child manners and appropriate behaviour. It is your child knowing there are consequences for misbehaving. It is being consistent with your children and modelling behaviour.

Fully agree. In the past they were expected to be quiet around adults but were usually out with other children having freedom for hours a day. Now they're with adults 24/7 but often still expected to stay quiet and still.

It's really not a case of teenagers now being awful. There have ALWAYS been teens who act out (and a lot more who are lovely - I work with teens) remember the film Quadraphenia? It's set in the 70s right? Which is when a lot of the people who complain about teens / kids would have been teens themselves. Hmmm

Personally, I interact a lot more with my children than my parents interacted with me and my siblings. We had to entertain ourselves or be bored. We always found things to do. However, my children don't have things like tablets/Ipads etc. Number one, I can't afford it, also I'm very lucky to have NT children who don't require them. We're also lucky to have parks within walking distance and places to walk and, again, I'm lucky that my kids are easily entertained just by being outside.

Each child is different. What works for some won't work for others. Also when I grew up many families had one parent who worked. Now you really need 2 incomes (I'm a single parent so it's very clear to me why 2 incomes are needed!). Parents are generally more "time poor" now.

Yes. This.

Doctors and other waiting rooms used to have piles of magazines as well. Now they don’t. Waiting rooms have changed for everyone, probably for hygiene reasons and because of phones. Perhaps take some paper and crayons and a book for your child yourself?

I will also add I think some older parents have forgotten what it's like with younger children (no judgement, I have a 10yo and a 5yo and I can forget how tough the baby and toddler years are as they were a blur at times!). My mum's parents would look after us every Friday night and my dad's parents would look after us every Sunday. My own parents will have them the very odd day now and my mum would always be very vocal about having "done her time" with children. Much of that is down to my grandparents generation having retired much sooner than my parents generation. However I clearly remember my grandparents working as well. My grandmother even had her own business from home.

I'm sure if there were tablets etc when I was a child (I'm 34 now) my mum would have used them all the time. She hated having young children to be honest. She didn't care where I was (different with my sisters but I was the middle child) as long as I was out of the house where she couldn't see or hear me!

It definitely feels these days that the UK is geared towards baby boomers - leisure centres are full of gym classes aimed at the over 60's, during the school holidays the kids are all ushered out of the swimming pool at the prime time so that a group of older folk can take an aqua aerobics lesson in peace. I'm sure in my childhood during school holidays the regular timetable was paused so that children had their chance to use facilities.

The aqua fit lessons last 45 minutes at the most. That leaves the rest of the day for children to swim.

Totally agree with this. Kids are bottom of the pile for a lot of people. They're expected to stand up for older people on buses for example. Why? I would argue a 5 year old is at way more risk standing up on a bus than a 55 year old. The 5 year old is below eyeline and likely to get knocked or squashed. I really don't see why you should get more "respect" just for having been born earlier. Respect is earned. My kids respect people whose behaviour themselves is respectful and polite. They hold the door for people for example. But if that (usually in the age range of 50-70 in my experience) person doesn't thank them, I absolutely won't tell them off for saying "you're welcome" sarcastically.

What's the point of bringing your child to respect society when quite frankly the society they live in is crap in many respects?

We haven't created a great world for our kids and yet we expect them to show deference to us? Why?

Children must have a voice.....but I hate it when children are allowed to interupt, so rude!