To want Brexit be reversed

[BeKookySheep]

I don’t normally post about politics, but this has been playing on my mind for a while. I wasn’t super political before the referendum — just a mum trying to do her best for her family. But now, years later, I really feel like Brexit hasn’t delivered what we were promised. And I think we should seriously start talking about reversing it.

My eldest is 16, really bright, and had dreams of studying languages and maybe doing a year abroad. We looked into Erasmus a while ago, but that’s gone now. And the cost and hassle of studying or working in Europe is so much higher now. She asked me, “Why is it so much harder for us than it was for you, Mum?” And honestly, I didn’t know what to say. It hit me hard.

Everything’s more expensive — our food shop has gone up loads, and don’t even get me started on getting certain things for school packed lunches! Little things, but they add up. My brother runs a small business and he's drowning in paperwork just to send stuff to Ireland. And a friend of mine left the NHS because she felt so overstretched — they can’t recruit enough staff anymore, especially from Europe.

Brexit hasn’t made anything better. It’s just made life harder in so many small but important ways. And if something clearly isn’t working — and is limiting our children’s futures — why shouldn’t we talk about changing it?

We tell our kids it’s okay to admit when something’s not right and make it better. Maybe it’s time we took our own advice.

Would love to hear if others are feeling the same. Has Brexit made life harder for your family too?

If that is true the brexiteers have brought it on themselves, they cannot expect to fuck up our country and economy through their stupidity they expect everyone to be nice to them.

I understand that - I'm saying that economists were putting forward arguments about our economy and therefore shouldnt be viewed as making political commentary.
The fact that by far and away the majority of them thought it was a bad idea doesnt make them anti Brexit, just doing their jobs.

Single market means free movement of goods, services and people. No tariffs, no checks, no visas - ie. no red tape.
Brexiteers and MAGA are deluded in the exact same way: putting up barriers is supposedly good for business and ordinary households. It's Orwellian in its level of gaslighting.

But of course, it doesn’t look so good on the side of a bus to say, “Let’s pretend we can keep the benefits of being part of the EU without paying the membership fee.”

I see the distinction you are making. Economists aren't politicians however I suppose their professional background may have swayed them if they couldn't find measurable upsides for Brexit - and in any case, the economy has a huge impact on political outcomes so you can't really separate the two.

It isn't difficult to say no to (non small boat) immigration . Now we have left the EU there is no right to free movement. The governments in power simply haven't had the will. If they don't find some motivation to reduce numbers right down they won't be in power again and we will have a reform government.

Yes tackling the boats is very difficult but they are not even doing the easy stuff. Perrhaps people would be more understanding of the difficulties of stopping the boats (while still expecting progress) if 900,000 other people (net) weren't being allowed in.

Edit to add: when people are actually fleeing danger e.g. the Ukraine war woman and children are well represented if not the majority. Remarkable that for people arriving on small boats the young men are "persecuted" and their women and children left behind. They are economic migrants else they wouldn't leave their families behind would they?

You think the boat crossings had anything to do with the right to free movement?! And you think pissing off our closest neighbours helped?!

Yes, I’ve covered all that.

Let me put it this way. Do you think that pro-EU economists should have been interviewed on TV? If so, should pro-Brexit economists have also been interviewed?

If you think the answers are yes and yes, as you seem to, how would you go about it? Would you have had 61 economists in the Newsnight studio, only one of whom was pro-Brexit? Or maybe just 20 to 1, even though that would be, you say, badly unrepresentative?

Of course your answers might be yes and no. In which case you don’t think pro-Brexit arguments should have been heard.

As to facts and opinions, I really don’t think there’s a better example of opinion than economic predictions. By definition they’re opinion.

Again with "pro-EU" economists - were they pro our membership because it made financial sense to keep trade barriers with the EU to the minimum?
Economists studying the economic fall out - rather than political columnists.

Out of interest, which categories of legal immigration would you say no to?

If an economist said that they thought Brexit was economically a bad idea and argued against it, were they pro- or anti-Brexit?

There was a vote and Leave won 🤷‍♀️. I didn’t vote for it, but that’s democracy.

You won't mind then if other countries also say no to immigration and close their borders to British people?

It was advisory they gave the impression it wouldn't happen either way they were simply gauging the will of the people I don't think they would have voted that way had the government nor put it in those terms

Wow, thanks for enlightening us all. We'd never have known.

Well... I think they should have emphasised the actual ratio. I didn't even know it was that dramatically negative (and I was pretty plugged in during the lead up to the referendum). The pro-Leave case was given a platform which conferred it a veneer of rationality that it did not deserve. By giving a systematic 50-50 representation, voters were led to believe that it was not the outlier option it should have been - at least on the economy. That is why I am in fact much more pissed off with Cameron than I am with Farage. Farage was being Farage, but without Cameron's arrogant complacency we wouldn't be in this shit.
To go back to your initial question, no, in a case like this, it's a bit like asking if a Flat-Earther should have a platform at a planetary convention.
In terms of the economy, voting Brexit was on the level of Flat Earth belief and it should have been presented as such. But ultimately, it was a vote about identity and emotions. Do you FEEL more European? Do you want Britain (England, really, after all the bus was red) to remain British. There's no arguing with feelings, which is why I don't judge leave voters. I just think the Brexit referendum by nature was misleading and manipulative.

I feel the absolute opposite to you. I am glad we are out of Europe. They stitched us up at every turn. Good riddance I say.

I agree with you OP. Brexit has been a complete failure based on lies and exaggerations of its benefits from the outset of its campaigns. At the time it felt like a protest vote at the lack of concern economically for people living outside richer areas of the UK.

Now, hanging on to Brexit is madness. it’s made the UK much more vulnerable to global politics and its knocked billions off our economy compared to if we’d stayed in the EU.

@Viviennemary - I know you do. I remember the old Brexit threads.

There goes that benefit

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/05/05/britains-tariff-burden-worse-than-eu-despite-trump-brussels/

Did they give that impression?

I said that any decent interviewee or the presenter themselves should have made the point about the balance of opinion. That’s the point of interviews, questions and arguments.

The flat earth comparison is silly - unless you genuinely think that being in the EU is scientifically provable to be better than not. This was a political issue, not something demonstrably true or false using measuring instruments.

I doubt that the Brexit debate could be shown to be any more dishonest than any political campaign.

Even so, as I said upthread, I opted for remain, all considered, including what I will admit is an emotional belief that we should be aligned with other European nations.

But I’d like to think that I can see things ‘in colour’ and that this subject is not as one-sided or obvious as some EU supporters on here maintain. Certainly, saying that Brexit supporters are all very thick and easily led is an unhelpful position (I’m not suggesting you think or say that, but it’s all over these threads).

Generally, I do think there’s a rather disagreeable middle class ‘I’m educated and well-travelled, you’re not, so do as I say’ whiff about these threads.

I get that the Flat Earth comparison was rather derogatory but I meant that as an example of an outlier theory. Economically-speaking, I do think that the business case for leaving the EU was unsound. If you take other factors into consideration, I could understand the sovereignty argument, but then I'm a realist who doesn't believe that true sovereignty (in the way that leavers want to achieve) is realistic in this day and age. Nations are interdependent and if you leave one bloc as a middle power, you will fall into the orbit of another superpower. In that respect, I thought that being a senior member of the only bloc that is based on partnerships of equals, flawed as it may be, was preferable to becoming the vassal of another superpower. I frankly don't know right now what the partnership with the EU will look like if we get closer to them, but I would not want an alignment with Trump.

We still have the 2nd largest economy and gdp in Europe, the same as we did in 2019.

“stitched us up” strikes me as being a very silly response.
You need to read Sir Ivan Roger’s 9 Lessons of Brexit, or if you can’t be bothered just the first two (a) Brexit means Brexit, or, you don’t get the benefits of membership unless you’re a member and (b) other people have sovereignty too, meaning the EU owed the UK absolutely nothing. The UK wasn’t stitched up, it was delusional and got pissy when reality came calling.